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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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show number 78 for the 16th of April

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Richard Saunders here with you once

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again sex sex sex sex sex now that I've

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got your attention coming up on the show

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Kylie Sturgis interviews sex researcher

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dr. Petra boyington from the UK about

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and that'll be followed by a special

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doctor Rachel reports updating us all on

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the current situation and the good news

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with Simon Singh also in the UK and to

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round off the show we have the think

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tank with dr. H again Joe Benna mu and

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myself those people in the wollongong

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area why not join dr. Chrissie Wilson

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dr. Rachel Dunlop and myself as we give

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a talk at skeptics in the breeze and now

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the website is meetup.com / Wollongong

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hyphen skeptics or if you just google

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skeptics in the breeze we're speaking

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this sunday sunday afternoon on the 18th

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of april and that's kicking off around

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two o'clock check it out and come and

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say hello and enjoy three talks on

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Sunday afternoon so sit back grab that

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vodka martini shaken not stirred and

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I'm Carly Sturgis and I'm talking to dr.

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Petra Boynton dr. Petra Boynton is a

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lecturer in International Health

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Services Research at a London University

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where she teaches doctors nurses and

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other health professionals at a

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postgraduate level she regularly

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presents a conferences in the UK and

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internationally and completes research

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and training within the area of sex and

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relationships health she has presented

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earlier this year at the westminster

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skeptics on sex and the media to begin

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this interview I simply asked dr. Petra

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what is sexology well most people if you

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ask them what they think sexology is

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usually don't have any idea they they

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don't know what term means it's not

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familiar to them but I think for anyone

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who doesn't know what a sexologist is or

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even a sex researcher it's the study of

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sex but it could include a whole variety

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of areas so it could be through say

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sociology or psychology medicine it

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could be through history or anthropology

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it can be very biomedical in nature it

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can be very much in the sort of zoology

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biology areas sometimes I'm even until

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they've been doing physics and sex and

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I'm not quite sure what that involves

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but it most is a thing but most

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disciplines that study sex would come

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under a sort of an umbrella of sexology

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you're very active on your doctor petrol

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co uk website and on twitter with a

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number of links to media releases on sex

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and sexuality like Facebook will give

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you syphilis story for example how do

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you deal with that sort of

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misinformation and it seems to be

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never-ending is it really that bad yeah

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I think I think it's one of those things

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that when you start looking at it you

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find more awful things so I started off

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blogging to try and um I suppose have a

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platform to share more accurate

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information and to challenge initially

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stuff that I'd been misquoted on but it

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quickly spread to actually

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really being a lot to do with what I've

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been misquoted on but a lot more about

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poor media coverage generally and I mean

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I could spend pretty much all my time

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criticizing because there's lots of

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stuff that's not very good but I think I

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tried to limit myself to things that are

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really awful so their Facebook give you

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syphilis top story was just such a bad

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piece of reporting but also bad practice

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from people involved in health care in

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the UK they they claim that the face

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well they didn't say face but they said

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social networking sites gave me syphilis

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I'm forward related to it but it's it's

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things like that where I see it going

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kind of global that I usually will try

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and write something because a lot of

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stuff is is very localized it's not very

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good but you know maybe hardly anyone

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sees it and my worry is if sometimes I

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write about it and it gets a lot of

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attention I've kind of made it worse

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giving it more more credit than it needs

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so most of the stuff I do tends to focus

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around really large scale pieces of

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research or things that have become very

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popular in the media internationally

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recently you wrote on your blog about

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the need for reliable UK sex education

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and the difficulties of making it

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compulsory in schools but people think

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we've had sex education in schools for a

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very long time and in fact a lot of

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faith-based groups point to our rising

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rates of sexually transmitted infections

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and pregnancy and young people and they

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say that's happened because of sex

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education that you know you teach it and

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they all rush out and try and have set

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in truth we actually haven't got very

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good sex education in the UK in the in a

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lot of places it doesn't happen at all

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or it does but it's only talk within the

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curriculum which is basic biology so

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reproduction some schools are fabulous

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and they bring in outside speakers they

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have great school nurses who are

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specifically trained to talk about sex

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other schools bring in people who talk

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about abstinence some schools don't

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bring in anybody at all and so we have a

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real model in the UK of inconsistent

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teaching it's unreliable

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be taught and it's not to say that those

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doing the teaching are well-meaning or

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I'll trying i think you know there's a

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danger of suggesting that and that's not

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what I'm saying but if you look at this

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growing body of research from young

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people studies and young people shown

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time and time again then saying look

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okay yeah teaching us about condoms and

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teaching us about contraception and

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sti's and all the rest of it is useful

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but what about feelings and emotions and

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managing a relationship and knowing when

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someone sees you and when to say yes and

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when to say no and all the things that

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we all want to know as adults and as

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young people there was clearly you need

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to do something in fairness or

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Department of families children and

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skills they basically our families and

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kids Department really felt that that

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something needed to be done there was a

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big Youth Parliament study that said

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thousands of kids wanted it and felt it

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was there right and so a couple of years

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ago they said okay we are we are going

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to make this compulsory and there was a

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huge outcry in the press about how very

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young children children as young as five

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we're going to be made to watch why I

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don't know what they were going to be

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made to do but there was a whole sort of

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backlash in the right-wing press about

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sort of corruption of children with even

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the allegations that anyone who wanted

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to teach edgy sex education somehow had

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a an unhealthy interest in children

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which is obviously a very very damaging

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and patient have rose but that kind of

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blew over and there was a consultation

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and lots of people said they didn't want

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it but most people did and most parents

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did we then saw not not too long ago

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that they did a bit of a u-turn where

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they said okay we're going to let faith

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groups decide what could be taught now

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this is quite interesting because what

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what they also said was that we will

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make their parents opt their children

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out of sex education until the child is

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15 so that would mean that you'd have at

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least one year of compulsory sex

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education but up until that time your

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parents could remove you obviously you

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know but that's just ridiculous because

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you need to have the education much

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younger if you're having it at 15 you

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know you're at risk from a teenage

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pregnancy you'll probably be a mum by

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then it's just dark so is that backtrack

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and then there was this faith backtrack

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where they said okay they're going to

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don't have to teach the standard

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curriculum this new curriculum but they

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can say what they want about their faith

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on top of it so it might be in a

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Catholic school they would teach

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everything about termination but they

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would then say it was wrong or in a

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school where maybe many of the children

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were Muslim they might say well there is

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differences in sexuality but being gay

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is wrong and then just the other week

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they basically were trying to get this

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new sex education statutory into schools

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and the Conservatives opposed and

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wouldn't support it and basically

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because they were trying to get other

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things on on the new Children and

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Families bill through they dropped it so

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what that means in a very long-winded

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reply is that having had all this

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consultation and support and and and

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sort of growth and parents saying yes we

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need this help because most of us didn't

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get good sex education so you know

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please help us what we ended up with now

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is that there will be still in the same

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position that some schools will be doing

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great but a lot of schools won't and

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it's really going to be a kind of a

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lottery to what you get but this is

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bearing in mind you know people living

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in a in a very different climate now

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that it's not that you know young people

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20 30 50 60 years ago weren't interested

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in dating and relationships and having

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sex but nowadays there are very

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different expectations upon young people

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and pressures that we would really need

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sex education to help explain and it is

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really unclear now what is going to

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happen we really don't know and that's a

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worry one of the things that keeps

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coming up again and again is this tale

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about launch culture and how the

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sexualization of young women is a huge

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concern you even linked on twitter to a

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salon com article about how films like

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juno didn't seem to be really

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encouraging teen pregnancy so is this

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sexualization as bigger concerned as the

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media seems to make it the majority of

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the reports have been on Donald

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sexualization I think are not

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particularly helpful because they all

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work from the premise of saying well

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there's this thing called sexualisation

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we don't quite know what it is but we're

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going to act as though we do know what

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it is and now talk about how all

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is and will bring in for evidence we can

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find you know to support our cause and

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so terrible certainly some things have

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have undone t be changed new

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technologies have made things different

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the Internet's make things different

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mobile phones that make things different

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I mean I think you know for a lot of us

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when we were at school you know we might

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have picked on a girl who was perceived

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to be sexual we might have called her

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nasty names we may have tormented her on

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the way home from school but we wouldn't

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have been able to go home and then go on

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to you know the internet and corner

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names or go on facebook and stop me

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being mean or texting or all its so if i

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don't believe that these these

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technologies have somehow made this

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suddenly start but they do enable things

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that are problematic to go on they also

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00:11:39,879 --> 00:11:37,939
enable things that are very good to

274
00:11:41,829 --> 00:11:39,889
happen I mean they offer opportunities

275
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for young people to learn a lot and to

276
00:11:46,749 --> 00:11:44,959
share and connects but there is the

277
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downside and I think the difficulty

278
00:11:50,799 --> 00:11:49,160
we've got is is having a calm and recent

279
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:50,809
discussion about it because it gets

280
00:11:54,850 --> 00:11:52,850
caught up with the media with

281
00:11:56,919 --> 00:11:54,860
politicians and it's very easy to make

282
00:11:58,689 --> 00:11:56,929
these blanket statements but the thing

283
00:12:00,909 --> 00:11:58,699
that I think is worrying about a lot of

284
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:00,919
the sexualisation debates is that it

285
00:12:05,439 --> 00:12:03,410
becomes very reductionist if this idea

286
00:12:07,629 --> 00:12:05,449
that young people have no sense of

287
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awareness or agency that if they happen

288
00:12:11,470 --> 00:12:09,829
to see dunno then they'll go and get

289
00:12:13,419 --> 00:12:11,480
pregnant or if they watch a rap video

290
00:12:15,699 --> 00:12:13,429
the next minute they'll be just wearing

291
00:12:18,999 --> 00:12:15,709
hot pants and dancing in the high street

292
00:12:20,769 --> 00:12:19,009
or if they are in any way exposed to

293
00:12:23,169 --> 00:12:20,779
sort of sexual messages they'll go off

294
00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:23,179
and try them and I think a lot of the

295
00:12:27,249 --> 00:12:25,040
research with young people shows that

296
00:12:29,439 --> 00:12:27,259
they're quite savvy they don't all want

297
00:12:31,539 --> 00:12:29,449
to do this they can interpret it they

298
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:31,549
may choose to do it and often quite

299
00:12:35,769 --> 00:12:34,160
knowingly but they may also decide that

300
00:12:37,419 --> 00:12:35,779
they don't like it particularly or it

301
00:12:39,159 --> 00:12:37,429
doesn't appeal to them or they can take

302
00:12:41,319 --> 00:12:39,169
it or leave it and certainly give it

303
00:12:44,199 --> 00:12:41,329
some sensible thought it seems sometimes

304
00:12:46,239 --> 00:12:44,209
that people have this notion in their

305
00:12:47,979 --> 00:12:46,249
mind that young women are just passive

306
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:47,989
that they just sort of taking these

307
00:12:52,659 --> 00:12:49,970
things on that they're not being

308
00:12:54,999 --> 00:12:52,669
encouraged to question it does is that

309
00:12:56,739 --> 00:12:55,009
really as true as it seems to be I mean

310
00:12:58,659 --> 00:12:56,749
it's so difficult it's now I think that

311
00:13:00,639 --> 00:12:58,669
that certainly there are some women

312
00:13:02,379 --> 00:13:00,649
who've had negative experiences but I

313
00:13:03,660 --> 00:13:02,389
think the general approach to sort of

314
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:03,670
suggesting that your women

315
00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:06,930
victims and young men are all sort of

316
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:09,040
aggression are a assumes everyone's

317
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:10,480
hetrosexual which of course they are

318
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:13,210
yeah and be all young people are

319
00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:15,130
internet savvy and connected which a lot

320
00:13:19,170 --> 00:13:16,870
of the moment and that they're all

321
00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:19,180
somehow or other part of this i mean you

322
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:20,710
know a lot of youth culture is about

323
00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:22,090
doing things that are baffling and

324
00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:23,860
offensive to adults I mean that's the

325
00:13:27,090 --> 00:13:25,300
point you don't you don't want to be

326
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:27,100
doing what your parents agree with and

327
00:13:31,620 --> 00:13:30,010
you know that and and I think also part

328
00:13:33,270 --> 00:13:31,630
of being a parent from from the other

329
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:33,280
side is that you see things very

330
00:13:39,420 --> 00:13:36,610
differently as an adult and and so a lot

331
00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:39,430
of its is about us being afraid for our

332
00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:41,920
children and we should worry about young

333
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:44,590
people but it then the thing that

334
00:13:48,630 --> 00:13:46,690
bothers me about a lot of these such

335
00:13:50,730 --> 00:13:48,640
discussions in the media and there's

336
00:13:53,730 --> 00:13:50,740
been a few books written recently about

337
00:13:55,860 --> 00:13:53,740
this so-called Raj culture and how

338
00:13:58,260 --> 00:13:55,870
somehow it's the demise of feminism

339
00:14:00,870 --> 00:13:58,270
that's led to it and a problem at scales

340
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:00,880
rather than boys and it what it ends up

341
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:02,770
with eventually is still a sort of

342
00:14:07,140 --> 00:14:04,720
narrative about bills behaving

343
00:14:08,850 --> 00:14:07,150
themselves so it kind of talks about

344
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:08,860
awful it is that girls are better

345
00:14:13,770 --> 00:14:11,250
portrayed in a sexual way and yet

346
00:14:15,540 --> 00:14:13,780
critiques and attacks those girls who do

347
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:15,550
it or make something they need their

348
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:18,130
victims or the baby somehow deluded or

349
00:14:22,350 --> 00:14:20,290
they don't know their own minds or that

350
00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:22,360
they can't possibly have any agency or

351
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:24,640
choice that this is being sort of this

352
00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:26,800
sexualisation is sort of dumped upon

353
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:28,720
them you know as though they don't think

354
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:31,450
about it and I think what we're

355
00:14:34,950 --> 00:14:33,250
realizing for more sensitive work with

356
00:14:38,220 --> 00:14:34,960
young people is that yes they actually

357
00:14:40,530 --> 00:14:38,230
do think about this young men have a lot

358
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:40,540
to say and there is some sensitive work

359
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:42,010
to be done with young men i mean the

360
00:14:45,450 --> 00:14:43,570
difficulty i think with young men is

361
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:45,460
that within the sexualisation debate

362
00:14:50,250 --> 00:14:47,890
they tend to be given questions that

363
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:50,260
will only make them look dreadful so you

364
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:51,970
also you know you see a lot of studies

365
00:14:55,290 --> 00:14:53,410
where they say have you looked at

366
00:14:57,810 --> 00:14:55,300
pornography and they say yes they have

367
00:14:59,520 --> 00:14:57,820
and then they said you do do what you

368
00:15:01,830 --> 00:14:59,530
think about women and they get to say

369
00:15:04,290 --> 00:15:01,840
you know how negatively they view women

370
00:15:05,820 --> 00:15:04,300
but I think if you don't give young boys

371
00:15:07,740 --> 00:15:05,830
those cues and just getting to talk

372
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:07,750
about relationships generally yes they

373
00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:09,970
can be incredibly judgment about women

374
00:15:14,850 --> 00:15:13,420
but you can challenge that and it

375
00:15:17,130 --> 00:15:14,860
doesn't mean to say that I'll tell they

376
00:15:17,430 --> 00:15:17,140
actually behave all the time I mean I

377
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:17,440
think

378
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:19,600
certainly a lot of issues around sexism

379
00:15:24,420 --> 00:15:22,090
is an issue and we need to challenge it

380
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:24,430
but for me I think the point when we're

381
00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:26,410
only talking about sexualization and

382
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:29,110
victims and oppressors is we miss this

383
00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:31,890
is actually a lot more about

384
00:15:36,740 --> 00:15:34,480
commercialization and aspirational

385
00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:36,750
messages that we're getting all the time

386
00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:39,700
about how you should act and leave and

387
00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:41,910
have great sex and all of the rest of it

388
00:15:46,140 --> 00:15:44,620
and it seems strange that the media on

389
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:46,150
the one hand says how all form

390
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:48,610
sexualisation is and yet is saying you

391
00:15:53,010 --> 00:15:51,130
know two pages later how to please your

392
00:15:55,050 --> 00:15:53,020
partner or here's to buy these great

393
00:15:56,850 --> 00:15:55,060
blog way that will boost your sex life

394
00:15:58,770 --> 00:15:56,860
or you know all these sort of message is

395
00:16:02,160 --> 00:15:58,780
constantly of sex is something to

396
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:02,170
achieve and to perfect and to perform

397
00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:04,090
there's nothing about pleasure or

398
00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:06,670
teasing or adventure or exploration or

399
00:16:11,250 --> 00:16:09,190
just not doing it you know that's not an

400
00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:11,260
option and so I think we look to

401
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:13,390
pornography and and we look to all sorts

402
00:16:16,980 --> 00:16:15,130
of things like you know playboy bunny

403
00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:16,990
t-shirts and makeup for young children

404
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:19,480
and get upset about that and we miss

405
00:16:24,630 --> 00:16:22,450
these very commercialized messages young

406
00:16:27,180 --> 00:16:24,640
people are getting all the time really

407
00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:27,190
many people might be wondering why am I

408
00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:30,640
talking to you on a skeptic show but

409
00:16:35,190 --> 00:16:32,950
there has been a recent development that

410
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:35,200
seems to be very much looking at

411
00:16:40,140 --> 00:16:37,210
paranormal and pseudo scientific beliefs

412
00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:40,150
in regards to critter aid in Africa and

413
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:43,390
the pro alien group called the Raelian

414
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:46,930
movement how on earth could clitoris

415
00:16:54,390 --> 00:16:50,530
Africa and the idea that we're all alien

416
00:16:56,370 --> 00:16:54,400
be joined together well I mean yes it is

417
00:16:59,490 --> 00:16:56,380
just a rather baffling John but I will

418
00:17:01,710 --> 00:16:59,500
hopefully hopefully explain it because I

419
00:17:03,540 --> 00:17:01,720
am taking away and I still can't figure

420
00:17:06,030 --> 00:17:03,550
it out who's like where did these people

421
00:17:07,860 --> 00:17:06,040
it is well but I think we come from

422
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:07,870
other planets is the answer but I don't

423
00:17:12,929 --> 00:17:10,089
know I mean it's all it's all very very

424
00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:12,939
peculiar I mean basically some people

425
00:17:16,980 --> 00:17:14,560
may have actually seen this in that what

426
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:16,990
actually happened a few weeks ago was

427
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:18,970
that that we a lot of people had

428
00:17:23,819 --> 00:17:21,730
invitations on Twitter to a doctor

429
00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:23,829
clitoris and a lot of people are

430
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:25,360
actually I like the sound of that you

431
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:27,610
know pleasure helping women regain their

432
00:17:31,020 --> 00:17:29,530
bodies and and and reconstructive

433
00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:31,030
surgery you know I'll sign off

434
00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:33,070
yeah I have new tonight why not yeah

435
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:34,510
yeah exactly you know people thought it

436
00:17:38,010 --> 00:17:36,250
was a good idea and very well-meaning

437
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:38,020
and all the rest of it and I went had a

438
00:17:43,290 --> 00:17:40,720
look at the website and the first thing

439
00:17:45,660 --> 00:17:43,300
that I thought was a bit peculiar about

440
00:17:47,790 --> 00:17:45,670
it was that it said it was run by these

441
00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:47,800
very rarely an organization which I have

442
00:17:51,570 --> 00:17:49,840
to say I didn't really know much about I

443
00:17:53,370 --> 00:17:51,580
don't mean they weren't someone I was

444
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:53,380
familiar with so I did a bit of digging

445
00:17:57,900 --> 00:17:55,930
until actually you know they do have

446
00:18:01,230 --> 00:17:57,910
some slightly peculiar beliefs around

447
00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:01,240
subcloning and intelligent design and

448
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:04,150
and sidim I don't know it just made me

449
00:18:08,490 --> 00:18:06,730
feel slightly uncomfortable um but I

450
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:08,500
thought well I'll still keep an open

451
00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:11,170
mind because a lot of faith groups do do

452
00:18:16,590 --> 00:18:14,020
work in in all over the world and and do

453
00:18:18,630 --> 00:18:16,600
a good job at it and so I didn't want to

454
00:18:21,060 --> 00:18:18,640
say no this is awful straightaway but I

455
00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:21,070
just had these alarm bells ringing that

456
00:18:26,190 --> 00:18:23,350
this this was just not quite right so I

457
00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:26,200
emailed the organization and said you

458
00:18:30,090 --> 00:18:28,030
know what what are you actually doing

459
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:30,100
because it wasn't really clear from

460
00:18:33,420 --> 00:18:31,840
their website and their brochures it

461
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:33,430
said that they were doing reconstructive

462
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:35,110
surgery so basically afterwards had a

463
00:18:40,220 --> 00:18:37,810
clitoris removed you can do some repair

464
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:40,230
that actually helps her to sort of

465
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:43,360
reattach know anything so she can regain

466
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:45,330
the feeling and an experienced a

467
00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:48,130
clitoral orgasm but we don't know how

468
00:18:53,070 --> 00:18:50,860
often or how effective it is and I

469
00:18:55,140 --> 00:18:53,080
couldn't really work out from Cliff Road

470
00:18:56,670 --> 00:18:55,150
you know where were they involved and

471
00:18:58,890 --> 00:18:56,680
did people have to join their

472
00:19:01,230 --> 00:18:58,900
organization to have the surgery were

473
00:19:04,350 --> 00:19:01,240
they offering other both you know

474
00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:04,360
they're sort of faith-based views along

475
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,310
side the surgery how were they working

476
00:19:09,780 --> 00:19:08,320
in communities and particularly how

477
00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:09,790
collaborative was it were they just

478
00:19:13,530 --> 00:19:11,230
turning up and telling people what they

479
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:13,540
had to do or were they engaging because

480
00:19:17,730 --> 00:19:15,850
a lot of my works in international

481
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:17,740
health and we're very mindful that

482
00:19:22,620 --> 00:19:20,050
there's a long history of a well-meaning

483
00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:22,630
but often very oppressive people who

484
00:19:27,780 --> 00:19:24,820
have a great idea that worked in in

485
00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:27,790
Manhattan or in in Boston or in London

486
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:29,940
and so they think what this will work in

487
00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:33,310
you know Botswana so here we are and the

488
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:35,440
community may be too polite or two

489
00:19:40,620 --> 00:19:38,110
oppressed or just need something and so

490
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:40,630
won't say no I kind of was a bit

491
00:19:43,650 --> 00:19:42,010
bothered about their approaches they

492
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:43,660
didn't really reply to me I didn't get

493
00:19:46,650 --> 00:19:44,890
anything from them

494
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:46,660
colleagues did and they weren't very

495
00:19:50,850 --> 00:19:48,730
clear on what it was they were actually

496
00:19:52,020 --> 00:19:50,860
doing and they they've not measured I

497
00:19:53,790 --> 00:19:52,030
mean this is a hospital doing

498
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:53,800
reconstructive surgery but they can't

499
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:55,360
tell you how many surgeries they've

500
00:19:59,280 --> 00:19:56,530
carried out or whether they were

501
00:20:00,930 --> 00:19:59,290
successful or not which is worrying and

502
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:00,940
they said they're going to publish

503
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:02,650
something but but they haven't got any

504
00:20:06,930 --> 00:20:05,110
data and you know the weird be there

505
00:20:10,140 --> 00:20:06,940
signing off their emails from their

506
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:10,150
hospital with this join another group of

507
00:20:14,190 --> 00:20:11,530
theirs which is to give women the right

508
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:14,200
to go topless which you know you know

509
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:15,490
fair enough if you want to go topics but

510
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:18,010
it seems slightly flippant alongside of

511
00:20:21,690 --> 00:20:19,810
campaign against female genital

512
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:21,700
mutilation you know it's all a bit

513
00:20:26,790 --> 00:20:24,250
peculiar so there's been a whole issue

514
00:20:29,460 --> 00:20:26,800
around sort of critter aid and who they

515
00:20:32,430 --> 00:20:29,470
are and how much money they've gotten I

516
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:32,440
had an email from a somebody who works

517
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:34,930
in in the porn industry he'd said you

518
00:20:39,660 --> 00:20:37,570
know I actually saw these guys coming to

519
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:39,670
a conference an adult conference and

520
00:20:44,550 --> 00:20:42,370
entertainment conference back in 2007

521
00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:44,560
and they were collecting them for this

522
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:46,960
hospital and people were stuffing you

523
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:49,210
know lots of money into their collection

524
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:52,090
boxes because they they play on what I

525
00:20:56,190 --> 00:20:54,130
think some people have called orgasm

526
00:20:58,590 --> 00:20:56,200
guilt you know I'm here having this sexy

527
00:21:02,340 --> 00:20:58,600
time therefore I'm going to help these

528
00:21:04,740 --> 00:21:02,350
other people have a sexy time and yet

529
00:21:06,450 --> 00:21:04,750
this hospital is you know the calls just

530
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:06,460
to adopt a clitoris are still to build

531
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:08,290
this hospital and I impeach I appreciate

532
00:21:12,570 --> 00:21:10,930
hospitals cost money but it just seems

533
00:21:14,970 --> 00:21:12,580
this has been going on for a long while

534
00:21:16,530 --> 00:21:14,980
and nobody can really see what they're

535
00:21:18,810 --> 00:21:16,540
doing or where they've got with this

536
00:21:21,150 --> 00:21:18,820
program and the other thing apart from

537
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:21,160
this sort of i suppose imposition of a

538
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:23,050
program on a community which may or may

539
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:25,090
not be welcome is there doesn't seem to

540
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,010
be any local checking they claim that

541
00:21:30,930 --> 00:21:29,200
nobody else offers this service in

542
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:30,940
burkina faso where when they're offering

543
00:21:34,890 --> 00:21:32,770
it and yet actually where people have

544
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:34,900
investigated it there's plenty of people

545
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:37,210
in burkina faso offering free

546
00:21:41,910 --> 00:21:39,520
reconstructive surgery you know yeah

547
00:21:43,860 --> 00:21:41,920
they don't have a lot of money but why

548
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:43,870
is is clitter aid and the Raelians

549
00:21:47,550 --> 00:21:45,520
building their own hospital when

550
00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:47,560
existing hospitals are doing this and

551
00:21:52,110 --> 00:21:50,080
just need a bit more cash to to pay for

552
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:52,120
it so there's that elements are sort of

553
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:54,610
imposing not only your idea that you're

554
00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:56,170
going to build a hospital but not lazing

555
00:22:01,710 --> 00:21:58,330
with services that are already

556
00:22:03,180 --> 00:22:01,720
doing what needs to be done so I mean

557
00:22:06,060 --> 00:22:03,190
you know I think the thing the thing

558
00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:06,070
that has made a lot of people feel

559
00:22:09,509 --> 00:22:07,600
uncomfortable as well as is not only

560
00:22:12,659 --> 00:22:09,519
that you know these services already

561
00:22:14,639 --> 00:22:12,669
exist so it's not like you know closer

562
00:22:16,049 --> 00:22:14,649
80 right when they say you know nobody

563
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:16,059
else is doing this but they don't seem

564
00:22:20,159 --> 00:22:17,970
to have consulted with anybody else

565
00:22:22,279 --> 00:22:20,169
offering this service which you would

566
00:22:24,930 --> 00:22:22,289
normally do in an international context

567
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:24,940
but but more than that I think there's

568
00:22:30,779 --> 00:22:27,370
this additional problem of the call to

569
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:30,789
adopt a woman's clitoris which you know

570
00:22:34,379 --> 00:22:32,320
I think a lot of people have found

571
00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:34,389
distasteful because it's saying you know

572
00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:36,220
go and adopt an african woman's clitoris

573
00:22:40,460 --> 00:22:38,049
and you're wondering what it would it

574
00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:40,470
work if we said why don't we adopt a

575
00:22:46,620 --> 00:22:44,110
Frenchman's testicle Laura an Icelandic

576
00:22:48,450 --> 00:22:46,630
woman's nipple or something I mean you

577
00:22:50,669 --> 00:22:48,460
know does it carry with particular of

578
00:22:53,399 --> 00:22:50,679
connotations of sort of ownership and

579
00:22:56,220 --> 00:22:53,409
and sort of appropriation that would

580
00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:56,230
understandably cause offence and even

581
00:23:00,000 --> 00:22:58,210
though I think a lot of people have been

582
00:23:03,409 --> 00:23:00,010
incredibly well meaning in their support

583
00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:03,419
of this campaign and it's not been

584
00:23:07,289 --> 00:23:05,679
something that they thought about and I

585
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:07,299
think it's been actually quite telling

586
00:23:11,879 --> 00:23:10,090
case study for people involved in in sex

587
00:23:14,730 --> 00:23:11,889
education and in science because I've

588
00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:14,740
seen a lot of scientists talk about we

589
00:23:18,090 --> 00:23:16,630
know we must do something about this and

590
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:18,100
a lot of people involved in sex

591
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:20,320
education and research saying come and

592
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:21,970
support this this venture support

593
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:24,130
clitter aid and a doctor clitoris and I

594
00:23:27,690 --> 00:23:25,570
think it's because you know female

595
00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:27,700
genital mutilation and cutting is so

596
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:30,600
upsetting and such an awful thing that

597
00:23:35,789 --> 00:23:33,370
people don't want to question it and

598
00:23:38,340 --> 00:23:35,799
because giving women pleasure is such a

599
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:38,350
powerful thing nobody wants to be the

600
00:23:42,570 --> 00:23:40,510
one that's the sort of spoils the party

601
00:23:44,460 --> 00:23:42,580
and so the difficult I thinking

602
00:23:46,669 --> 00:23:44,470
challenging this is that the people have

603
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:46,679
you would normally be very critical

604
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:48,880
people who normally be very skeptical

605
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:52,450
have not applied they're skeptical lens

606
00:23:58,769 --> 00:23:55,570
on this occasion because I think the

607
00:24:00,690 --> 00:23:58,779
overall area is something that is so

608
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:00,700
problematic they they want to be seen to

609
00:24:03,570 --> 00:24:02,710
do something and not question it's

610
00:24:05,070 --> 00:24:03,580
something that they wouldn't even

611
00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:05,080
question it because they think well this

612
00:24:10,649 --> 00:24:08,289
is this is obviously a good cause and if

613
00:24:12,659 --> 00:24:10,659
I've had some people say you know

614
00:24:15,029 --> 00:24:12,669
okay it's run by the Raelians and it is

615
00:24:16,919 --> 00:24:15,039
a cult and it is you know we don't

616
00:24:19,499 --> 00:24:16,929
really know much about it to me the test

617
00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:19,509
got this you know awful dr. clitoris

618
00:24:23,519 --> 00:24:21,220
thing that goes with it but hey if it's

619
00:24:26,729 --> 00:24:23,529
helping women we shouldn't really say

620
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:26,739
anything about it or some people said

621
00:24:31,049 --> 00:24:28,210
you know that because I questioned it

622
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:31,059
i'm sort of an anti-sex feminist who is

623
00:24:34,919 --> 00:24:33,129
prudish and I want to deny African women

624
00:24:37,529 --> 00:24:34,929
pleasure so by that token I'm also

625
00:24:40,049 --> 00:24:37,539
prudish and racist or that because I

626
00:24:42,509 --> 00:24:40,059
challenged female circumcision sorry

627
00:24:44,159 --> 00:24:42,519
female genital mutilation or I've got

628
00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:44,169
involved in debates around male and

629
00:24:50,399 --> 00:24:46,809
female circumcision which is sort of

630
00:24:54,269 --> 00:24:50,409
come with this that there's been a sort

631
00:24:56,460 --> 00:24:54,279
of a wider discussion about you know

632
00:24:59,159 --> 00:24:56,470
that this is your somehow condoning

633
00:25:02,279 --> 00:24:59,169
female genital mutilation and cutting by

634
00:25:05,549 --> 00:25:02,289
questioning this issue and and that I

635
00:25:07,409 --> 00:25:05,559
think is quite a sort of a good but

636
00:25:10,249 --> 00:25:07,419
upsetting case study for people who are

637
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:10,259
skeptical to think about we're often

638
00:25:16,499 --> 00:25:13,210
good on certain issues immunization

639
00:25:19,229 --> 00:25:16,509
vaccinations homeopathy and various

640
00:25:20,609 --> 00:25:19,239
other things too quickly think ok I'm

641
00:25:23,039 --> 00:25:20,619
going to question this I'm going to go

642
00:25:25,409 --> 00:25:23,049
and really research it but on this issue

643
00:25:27,719 --> 00:25:25,419
a lot of people have been like well I

644
00:25:31,099 --> 00:25:27,729
don't think I'm going to question it

645
00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:31,109
because I don't want to be seen to be

646
00:25:35,489 --> 00:25:33,609
you know condoning a practice I don't

647
00:25:37,469 --> 00:25:35,499
agree with or it's just too

648
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:37,479
uncomfortable or maybe just I don't

649
00:25:40,529 --> 00:25:39,129
think I need to question it because I

650
00:25:41,969 --> 00:25:40,539
don't agree with female genital

651
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:41,979
mutilation and therefore I will do

652
00:25:45,930 --> 00:25:43,450
anything to support you know

653
00:25:47,729 --> 00:25:45,940
organizations very little to show

654
00:25:50,129 --> 00:25:47,739
evidence of where the money is going on

655
00:25:52,979 --> 00:25:50,139
yet absolutely i mean you know there's

656
00:25:55,710 --> 00:25:52,989
we approach this as I I tend to approach

657
00:25:57,450 --> 00:25:55,720
most things which is okay I'd like this

658
00:25:59,310 --> 00:25:57,460
to be a really good venture you know I

659
00:26:00,599 --> 00:25:59,320
bear it no real will I would like it to

660
00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:00,609
be a good venture but the more I looked

661
00:26:04,619 --> 00:26:02,830
into it you know I can't work out what

662
00:26:06,690 --> 00:26:04,629
they're doing I can't work out why

663
00:26:09,269 --> 00:26:06,700
they're doing sort of treatment where

664
00:26:11,969 --> 00:26:09,279
it's already on offer I don't understand

665
00:26:13,379 --> 00:26:11,979
why you know there is no real clear

666
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:13,389
evidence of what they've spent this

667
00:26:18,239 --> 00:26:15,279
money on or how much they've got so far

668
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:18,249
since at least 2007 but possibly longer

669
00:26:24,220 --> 00:26:22,450
as far as we know and again you know if

670
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:24,230
you are providing certain

671
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:25,760
Karen you can't talk about how many

672
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:27,650
people you've seen or what's happened

673
00:26:33,820 --> 00:26:30,530
their responses to say the own what

674
00:26:35,470 --> 00:26:33,830
evidence they count is women telling

675
00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:35,480
them they've had an orgasm for the first

676
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:39,440
time which is wonderful but it's also

677
00:26:43,030 --> 00:26:41,600
quite naive because it doesn't tell you

678
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:43,040
about women you feel whom it may not

679
00:26:48,190 --> 00:26:45,530
have works and in a culture if you're in

680
00:26:49,810 --> 00:26:48,200
a culture where you know woman's

681
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:49,820
clitoris is a view to so threatening

682
00:26:54,789 --> 00:26:53,210
they have to be cut away there is a

683
00:26:56,430 --> 00:26:54,799
whole question of if you start restoring

684
00:26:59,200 --> 00:26:56,440
them but you don't do any wider

685
00:27:02,590 --> 00:26:59,210
community working and education and

686
00:27:05,890 --> 00:27:02,600
practice that that she may be shunned or

687
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:05,900
ostracized or researcher you know we cut

688
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:08,720
or whatever so you know there's that

689
00:27:12,909 --> 00:27:11,450
whole problem there around I mean we

690
00:27:16,060 --> 00:27:12,919
certainly know that we constructed

691
00:27:18,220 --> 00:27:16,070
surgery can work but the evidence

692
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:18,230
suggests that the surgery is really the

693
00:27:22,060 --> 00:27:19,970
own the first bit of the puzzle it only

694
00:27:24,580 --> 00:27:22,070
works if you then do wider community

695
00:27:26,770 --> 00:27:24,590
work and building and particularly

696
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:26,780
around gender inequalities and and and

697
00:27:33,010 --> 00:27:30,080
interpersonal relationships and involve

698
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:33,020
women and men in in what you do and and

699
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:34,880
I haven't got any evidence that they've

700
00:27:39,220 --> 00:27:37,910
done that either and it's unfortunate

701
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:39,230
because it's got you know sort of

702
00:27:44,169 --> 00:27:41,120
commercial backing for a sex store and

703
00:27:45,850 --> 00:27:44,179
and it's all kind of resulting now in in

704
00:27:48,820 --> 00:27:45,860
sort of kind of fairly unpleasant

705
00:27:51,159 --> 00:27:48,830
discussions really about you know people

706
00:27:52,750 --> 00:27:51,169
getting involved and I think you know

707
00:27:54,820 --> 00:27:52,760
the best thing we can think about when

708
00:27:58,659 --> 00:27:54,830
anything like this comes along is is to

709
00:27:59,860 --> 00:27:58,669
try and be you know critical and and you

710
00:28:01,960 --> 00:27:59,870
know it doesn't mean say you're going to

711
00:28:03,730 --> 00:28:01,970
knock not support something but you're

712
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:03,740
just going to ask a few questions first

713
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:06,410
and and we do need to talk about that

714
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:09,110
publicly even if it's uncomfortable and

715
00:28:12,820 --> 00:28:11,120
I think you know what's happened here is

716
00:28:14,289 --> 00:28:12,830
a lot of people are running headfirst

717
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:14,299
wanting to supported and have done so

718
00:28:18,430 --> 00:28:16,640
very publicly and as a result we've had

719
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:18,440
having questions and conversations in

720
00:28:22,750 --> 00:28:19,850
public that perhaps would have been

721
00:28:24,430 --> 00:28:22,760
better in private that they probably

722
00:28:25,539 --> 00:28:24,440
could have had you know people that said

723
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:25,549
I think I might support this

724
00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:28,000
organization what do you reckon

725
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:30,110
collaboratively working again we could

726
00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:31,370
have probably found that lately work

727
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:33,440
right people to support but it's

728
00:28:36,350 --> 00:28:34,970
interesting that people are still saying

729
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:36,360
well ok I might

730
00:28:40,970 --> 00:28:38,010
not donate but I still think it's a good

731
00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:40,980
idea but but I don't know that it's a

732
00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:42,809
good idea I mean I I certainly

733
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:44,460
reconstructive surgery is not a bad idea

734
00:28:48,220 --> 00:28:46,290
it's done appropriately and with

735
00:28:51,710 --> 00:28:48,230
community involvement and a proper

736
00:28:54,620 --> 00:28:51,720
support as certainly challenging female

737
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:54,630
genital mutilation is definitely a good

738
00:28:59,530 --> 00:28:57,210
cause but this particular organization

739
00:29:01,760 --> 00:28:59,540
of their approach I don't know you know

740
00:29:03,380 --> 00:29:01,770
what it's doing I mean they certainly

741
00:29:05,630 --> 00:29:03,390
seem to have done some surgery so I

742
00:29:08,539 --> 00:29:05,640
don't think it's you know a total scam

743
00:29:10,580 --> 00:29:08,549
but I don't know quite what is going on

744
00:29:13,250 --> 00:29:10,590
and I think the interesting thing about

745
00:29:15,140 --> 00:29:13,260
the sponsorship ankle because they had

746
00:29:17,750 --> 00:29:15,150
some sponsorship coming in from sort of

747
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:17,760
sex stores and the like is that you know

748
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:19,770
very often people working in sex

749
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:22,770
education and research like me you know

750
00:29:27,169 --> 00:29:24,960
we want to do some good we want to help

751
00:29:28,940 --> 00:29:27,179
people but it's it's often quite hard

752
00:29:31,159 --> 00:29:28,950
some charities won't accept your money

753
00:29:33,350 --> 00:29:31,169
because you're involved in insects or

754
00:29:36,140 --> 00:29:33,360
areas of sex that they disapproval and

755
00:29:38,060 --> 00:29:36,150
particularly around sexual pleasure I

756
00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:38,070
mean I don't think a few years ago where

757
00:29:42,140 --> 00:29:39,840
I was involved with some some friends of

758
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:42,150
mine who who were involved in dancing

759
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:44,130
erotic dancing and stripping and they

760
00:29:49,130 --> 00:29:47,010
made a charity calendar and and they

761
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:49,140
found it very hard to find charities who

762
00:29:53,419 --> 00:29:51,570
would accept their money they raised me

763
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:53,429
but people didn't want that money all

764
00:29:57,530 --> 00:29:54,720
rather they didn't want to be associated

765
00:29:59,390 --> 00:29:57,540
with this organization and it could

766
00:30:01,340 --> 00:29:59,400
could play on that in a sense in that

767
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:01,350
they'll take cash because I'm let you

768
00:30:06,580 --> 00:30:05,010
know other people won't and that that's

769
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:06,590
an issue I think we need to think about

770
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:09,120
and also again to sort of challenge this

771
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:10,890
notion that just because you've

772
00:30:16,010 --> 00:30:14,250
questions this organization doesn't mean

773
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:16,020
to say that you think that the African

774
00:30:20,659 --> 00:30:18,450
women aren't entitled to pleasure I mean

775
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:20,669
that that is a nonsense I guess it's

776
00:30:25,159 --> 00:30:22,559
also one of those sticky things about

777
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:25,169
feminism altogether if you are you being

778
00:30:28,340 --> 00:30:26,640
anti-feminist or are you being

779
00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:28,350
pro-feminist because you care enough to

780
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:30,809
question absolutely and I think for me

781
00:30:37,820 --> 00:30:34,770
it's it's it's years ago I heard about

782
00:30:40,039 --> 00:30:37,830
female genital mutilation cutting in the

783
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:40,049
early 90s actually and it was after

784
00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:43,890
Alice Walker wrote bucum possessing the

785
00:30:48,049 --> 00:30:45,630
secret of joy which which talked about

786
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:48,059
it and I've never heard of it so that's

787
00:30:50,510 --> 00:30:48,930
how and

788
00:30:52,490 --> 00:30:50,520
got very interested in it and I started

789
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:52,500
to read up on it and make connections of

790
00:30:55,970 --> 00:30:54,570
people working on the issue in the UK

791
00:30:59,180 --> 00:30:55,980
and at the time I was a psychology

792
00:31:03,110 --> 00:30:59,190
lecturer welcome an undergraduate sir

793
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:03,120
Knight I wanted it but like we had a

794
00:31:07,460 --> 00:31:04,770
health court and I put it into the

795
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:07,470
health psychology course and I ended up

796
00:31:11,060 --> 00:31:09,450
with all kinds of problems with you know

797
00:31:12,620 --> 00:31:11,070
people saying well why are you teaching

798
00:31:13,850 --> 00:31:12,630
this because this is just about African

799
00:31:15,170 --> 00:31:13,860
when what's it got to do with us so

800
00:31:17,180 --> 00:31:15,180
we're never going to meet anybody who's

801
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:17,190
involved in this and you know it's it's

802
00:31:20,210 --> 00:31:18,930
you should just let cultures get on with

803
00:31:22,340 --> 00:31:20,220
it you're being raised is four saying

804
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:22,350
they shouldn't do it and all sorts of

805
00:31:26,570 --> 00:31:24,510
backlash that sort of happened there and

806
00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:26,580
it's one of those areas that I think you

807
00:31:30,260 --> 00:31:28,830
know in this situation you've got got

808
00:31:33,230 --> 00:31:30,270
the sort of the female genital

809
00:31:35,810 --> 00:31:33,240
mutilation issue which always brings up

810
00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:35,820
did buy it you know around culture and

811
00:31:42,190 --> 00:31:38,640
race and other areas and religion as

812
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:42,200
well and then because it's linked to

813
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:45,330
sort of feminism and and sex positive

814
00:31:50,510 --> 00:31:47,370
feminism there's obviously the arguments

815
00:31:52,370 --> 00:31:50,520
around feminist involvement there but I

816
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:52,380
suppose an added layer is also sort of

817
00:31:55,250 --> 00:31:54,000
the international development level of

818
00:31:57,410 --> 00:31:55,260
whether you should or shouldn't get

819
00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:57,420
involved and all of the things to really

820
00:32:01,850 --> 00:32:00,480
kind of get into a sticky an unpleasant

821
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:01,860
debate this will probably have the

822
00:32:05,150 --> 00:32:03,450
hallmarks of all the things that they're

823
00:32:07,220 --> 00:32:05,160
you know you're going to get you know

824
00:32:08,570 --> 00:32:07,230
got up from all sides for saying and I

825
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:08,580
think that's why a lot of people have

826
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:10,080
said I just don't want to talk about

827
00:32:14,690 --> 00:32:12,840
this publicly because it means you know

828
00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:14,700
even if I can argue it from an

829
00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:16,110
international development and the health

830
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:18,030
argument I'm still going to get got out

831
00:32:22,490 --> 00:32:19,530
from feminist so I'm still going to be

832
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:22,500
got up from sex educators or you know

833
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:24,930
you kind of can't win and that's I think

834
00:32:29,620 --> 00:32:26,880
for me one of the interesting things

835
00:32:32,150 --> 00:32:29,630
about the sort of the journey of

836
00:32:35,290 --> 00:32:32,160
skepticism in a sense is that how do you

837
00:32:38,660 --> 00:32:35,300
find ways to try and raise these issues

838
00:32:40,970 --> 00:32:38,670
firmly but gently that doesn't sort of

839
00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:40,980
have to become a personal attack on

840
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:42,750
people even though it might feel like

841
00:32:47,390 --> 00:32:45,360
that but that still makes us think you

842
00:32:50,510 --> 00:32:47,400
know you know let's question it because

843
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:50,520
one of the things I really value from my

844
00:32:54,020 --> 00:32:52,320
people I know who are critical thinkers

845
00:32:56,330 --> 00:32:54,030
and and people who are very reflective

846
00:33:02,030 --> 00:32:56,340
is that they make me think twice about

847
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:02,040
what I do and that really helps me make

848
00:33:06,110 --> 00:33:03,840
decisions and it means that if I've made

849
00:33:07,610 --> 00:33:06,120
the incorrect decision or perhaps I

850
00:33:10,220 --> 00:33:07,620
could have done something better I can

851
00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:10,230
hopefully find a way to express that or

852
00:33:16,430 --> 00:33:13,740
setting right and I think when you get

853
00:33:19,250 --> 00:33:16,440
into something like this where it's it's

854
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:19,260
got lots of gray areas in a sense and

855
00:33:22,490 --> 00:33:20,970
lots of areas where people might feel

856
00:33:24,770 --> 00:33:22,500
they're not sure so on the one hand yes

857
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:24,780
they want to be a sex positive person

858
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:26,010
and support pleasure but on the other

859
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:27,450
hand they don't agree with female

860
00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:29,850
genital cutting and on the other hand

861
00:33:33,950 --> 00:33:31,710
they're not sure about the whole cult

862
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:33,960
thing and the rail Ian movement but yet

863
00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:37,410
they want to encourage development in in

864
00:33:42,380 --> 00:33:39,660
Africa you know you'll kind of pulled

865
00:33:44,180 --> 00:33:42,390
the whole time and I think that we very

866
00:33:45,980 --> 00:33:44,190
often feel more comfortable I think as a

867
00:33:47,870 --> 00:33:45,990
skeptic sometimes with with more black

868
00:33:49,670 --> 00:33:47,880
and white debates you know that we can

869
00:33:52,130 --> 00:33:49,680
say well this is wrong this is right or

870
00:33:55,490 --> 00:33:52,140
we can get into quite concrete thinking

871
00:33:57,500 --> 00:33:55,500
and instead of arguments that are are

872
00:34:00,950 --> 00:33:57,510
quite static whereas a lot of this stuff

873
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:00,960
is fluid it's it's very very complex and

874
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:03,450
and it's not comfortable to talk about

875
00:34:07,220 --> 00:34:05,370
and and because it makes people very

876
00:34:09,919 --> 00:34:07,230
upset and angry it then tends to lead to

877
00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:09,929
I mean I I talked about it a bit I tried

878
00:34:13,340 --> 00:34:11,250
to talk about it a bit on the bad

879
00:34:14,780 --> 00:34:13,350
science forums because I didn't know

880
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:14,790
much about the Raelians I knew a lot

881
00:34:18,290 --> 00:34:16,890
about female genital cutting but I

882
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:18,300
didn't know much about the Raelians and

883
00:34:21,470 --> 00:34:19,890
I wondered if anybody might know

884
00:34:22,970 --> 00:34:21,480
something there and I asked and some

885
00:34:24,950 --> 00:34:22,980
people were very helpful that a lot of

886
00:34:27,409 --> 00:34:24,960
people be very helpful on this venture

887
00:34:30,050 --> 00:34:27,419
but there is the inevitable backlash of

888
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:30,060
you know accusations of racism and

889
00:34:33,980 --> 00:34:31,890
things like that that you kind of think

890
00:34:37,610 --> 00:34:33,990
well this now makes it very difficult to

891
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:37,620
have a sensible conversation because

892
00:34:41,450 --> 00:34:39,690
you're now firefighting those

893
00:34:43,850 --> 00:34:41,460
accusations and that's I think the

894
00:34:45,650 --> 00:34:43,860
problem in that what we really need with

895
00:34:48,740 --> 00:34:45,660
these issues is to focus on the issues

896
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:48,750
and in a sense evidence is our friend

897
00:34:52,940 --> 00:34:50,970
here because it lets us think about it I

898
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:52,950
wouldn't say dispassionately because

899
00:34:59,240 --> 00:34:55,679
certainly I'm not but at least with a

900
00:35:00,980 --> 00:34:59,250
kind of a I suppose a buffer there that

901
00:35:02,900 --> 00:35:00,990
you can say well look you know I mean

902
00:35:05,090 --> 00:35:02,910
and certainly the way I've approach

903
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:05,100
writing about Chris 'read is is not to

904
00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:08,610
start sort of really a slanging match

905
00:35:13,130 --> 00:35:10,710
with anyone who supported them it's more

906
00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:13,140
to say look here's your way out look

907
00:35:15,420 --> 00:35:14,640
this is what I found out about this

908
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:15,430
organization

909
00:35:18,990 --> 00:35:17,170
makes me question what's happening and

910
00:35:21,210 --> 00:35:19,000
I'm not sure about how it's been

911
00:35:23,220 --> 00:35:21,220
employed in this community and I really

912
00:35:24,990 --> 00:35:23,230
don't know how it's been sort of done it

913
00:35:27,359 --> 00:35:25,000
it seems to be stepping on a lot of toes

914
00:35:30,990 --> 00:35:27,369
so I think we should think about that

915
00:35:34,290 --> 00:35:31,000
and you know part of being you know I

916
00:35:37,049 --> 00:35:34,300
suppose a a critical thinker is that you

917
00:35:40,410 --> 00:35:37,059
can say hang on i did this i supported

918
00:35:42,540 --> 00:35:40,420
this but I actually think I'm I'm gonna

919
00:35:45,359 --> 00:35:42,550
change my mind and yes why and I think

920
00:35:46,859 --> 00:35:45,369
people and people respect you for that

921
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:46,869
you know I think people really do

922
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:50,170
respect you for that but um I've

923
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:51,970
certainly had a few people email me who

924
00:35:55,140 --> 00:35:53,530
you weren't more in the sex education

925
00:35:56,910 --> 00:35:55,150
side of things you've said look I are

926
00:35:59,099 --> 00:35:56,920
permanently support this venture and I

927
00:36:01,290 --> 00:35:59,109
kind of know feel I can't say I don't

928
00:36:03,210 --> 00:36:01,300
support it anymore because people think

929
00:36:05,339 --> 00:36:03,220
I'm a hypocrite you know this is a big

930
00:36:07,290 --> 00:36:05,349
issue for a lot of people who talk about

931
00:36:09,359 --> 00:36:07,300
and blog about and research and do

932
00:36:10,980 --> 00:36:09,369
therapy insects that you're under such a

933
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:10,990
lot of criticism with the best of times

934
00:36:13,829 --> 00:36:12,010
that you know you're not a proper

935
00:36:15,540 --> 00:36:13,839
scientist if you research sex and you're

936
00:36:17,010 --> 00:36:15,550
not a proper blog review right about sex

937
00:36:19,020 --> 00:36:17,020
and you know you're not promised Tara

938
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:19,030
pissed if you do sex therapy that that

939
00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:20,410
people don't want to give any more

940
00:36:23,250 --> 00:36:21,910
ammunition that they might have changed

941
00:36:26,069 --> 00:36:23,260
their mind because it will be used

942
00:36:27,690 --> 00:36:26,079
against them and I can see that being a

943
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:27,700
big barrier for a lot of people are just

944
00:36:33,329 --> 00:36:30,010
not knowing how to sort of find a way

945
00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:33,339
through it I think we still have to say

946
00:36:37,319 --> 00:36:35,230
things even if they're uncomfortable and

947
00:36:38,940 --> 00:36:37,329
reflect I mean I'm still reflecting on

948
00:36:40,650 --> 00:36:38,950
this now and if it turns out someone can

949
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:40,660
give me evidence to say that this

950
00:36:44,370 --> 00:36:42,250
critter a thing is the best thing ever

951
00:36:46,319 --> 00:36:44,380
and has helped transform a community

952
00:36:48,089 --> 00:36:46,329
then I'm going to have to say that but

953
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:48,099
nobody has been able to say that to me

954
00:36:52,049 --> 00:36:50,410
so far and if people want to check out

955
00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:52,059
your work and check out your Twitter

956
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:54,670
stream they carried 200 on Twitter it's

957
00:37:05,069 --> 00:36:58,000
at dr. Petra and which is just dr p e

958
00:37:09,359 --> 00:37:05,079
tra and the website is www petra co uk

959
00:37:11,609 --> 00:37:09,369
sets dr p ET Rho dot u K and it's a I

960
00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:11,619
the blog is just some like it you just

961
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:12,910
go straight to it but if not it's

962
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:15,250
forward slash blog so have a look around

963
00:37:19,410 --> 00:37:17,770
because um hopefully they'll find some

964
00:37:21,559 --> 00:37:19,420
stuff in there that they kind of find

965
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:21,569
interesting and it sort of veers between

966
00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:23,770
you know complaining about the media to

967
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:25,270
sort of unpacking pieces of research to

968
00:37:28,890 --> 00:37:27,280
advise and there there is bits of advice

969
00:37:30,180 --> 00:37:28,900
in there as well

970
00:37:32,220 --> 00:37:30,190
right and will be wonderful to see you

971
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:32,230
more on the skeptics into a bit really

972
00:37:36,180 --> 00:37:34,480
yeah I mean it'sit's I've actually had a

973
00:37:37,770 --> 00:37:36,190
very warm welcome and i think it's been

974
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:37,780
you know I've been doing stuff to do

975
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:39,730
through through science sort of

976
00:37:43,530 --> 00:37:41,410
communication for a long while although

977
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:43,540
I certainly have issues about you know

978
00:37:47,460 --> 00:37:46,090
what that always means and you know I

979
00:37:49,170 --> 00:37:47,470
don't know that I would call myself as

980
00:37:51,450 --> 00:37:49,180
like this but you know but I think

981
00:37:52,740 --> 00:37:51,460
within sort of skepticism it's and it's

982
00:37:54,690 --> 00:37:52,750
interesting actually colleagues of mine

983
00:37:57,630 --> 00:37:54,700
he'd been working in sort of trying to

984
00:37:59,340 --> 00:37:57,640
do research around people involved in

985
00:38:01,110 --> 00:37:59,350
prostitution which is again a very

986
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:01,120
controversial area found that they they

987
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:02,560
had a lot of support from skeptics

988
00:38:06,450 --> 00:38:04,450
around helping them kind of challenge

989
00:38:08,730 --> 00:38:06,460
policy and practice and avoid the sort

990
00:38:09,930 --> 00:38:08,740
of more hysterical side of our arguments

991
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:09,940
about it just to do some straightforward

992
00:38:14,940 --> 00:38:12,880
talking that inevitably will be better

993
00:38:17,730 --> 00:38:14,950
in terms of helping people involved in

994
00:38:19,470 --> 00:38:17,740
in sec so if you want to add the exit it

995
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:19,480
but also supporting those who are

996
00:38:23,820 --> 00:38:21,910
currently involved to do so I think

997
00:38:25,890 --> 00:38:23,830
that's been a very helpful move we're in

998
00:38:29,940 --> 00:38:25,900
it well thank you very much dr. d'etre

999
00:38:32,220 --> 00:38:29,950
you're welcome thank you upon completing

1000
00:38:36,410 --> 00:38:32,230
this interview more breaking news about

1001
00:38:52,540 --> 00:38:36,420
Pluto a has hit the internet so head to

1002
00:39:01,070 --> 00:38:55,910
now it's time for dr. Rachel reports

1003
00:39:03,410 --> 00:39:01,080
with dr. Rachel Dunlop hello listeners

1004
00:39:05,780 --> 00:39:03,420
i'm dr. rachy and welcome to this very

1005
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:05,790
special roundup of recent events in The

1006
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:09,210
Skeptical community has not been a busy

1007
00:39:14,089 --> 00:39:11,490
few weeks some people are saying that

1008
00:39:16,010 --> 00:39:14,099
2010 is going to be the year for science

1009
00:39:18,380 --> 00:39:16,020
and skepticism and it's certainly

1010
00:39:20,510 --> 00:39:18,390
starting to look that way so let me

1011
00:39:22,849 --> 00:39:20,520
start off by saying happy chiropractic

1012
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:22,859
Awareness Week to everyone yes it is

1013
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:24,810
chiropractic Awareness Week and it

1014
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:26,970
overlaps with world homeopathy Awareness

1015
00:39:32,780 --> 00:39:29,970
Week how convenient and what a great way

1016
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:32,790
to start the week yesterday and after

1017
00:39:37,339 --> 00:39:34,770
two years of a long and drawn-out battle

1018
00:39:40,460 --> 00:39:37,349
the British chiropractic association or

1019
00:39:42,620 --> 00:39:40,470
BCA finally caved in and announced they

1020
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:42,630
were withdrawing their liable against

1021
00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:45,690
dr. Simon seen Simon things lawyers were

1022
00:39:50,930 --> 00:39:48,720
advised after the BCA filed a notice of

1023
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:50,940
discontinuation in the High Court in

1024
00:39:57,050 --> 00:39:54,000
London now to recap sing with food in

1025
00:39:59,300 --> 00:39:57,060
April 2008 for a piece he wrote in the

1026
00:40:00,680 --> 00:39:59,310
Guardians comment pages where he

1027
00:40:02,990 --> 00:40:00,690
suggested there was a lack of evidence

1028
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:03,000
for the claims some chiropractors made

1029
00:40:08,510 --> 00:40:05,520
on treating certain childhood conditions

1030
00:40:10,579 --> 00:40:08,520
and this included colic and asthma now

1031
00:40:12,620 --> 00:40:10,589
the BCA alleged that dr. Singh had

1032
00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:12,630
effectively accused its leaders of

1033
00:40:17,359 --> 00:40:15,119
knowingly supporting bogus treatments

1034
00:40:19,180 --> 00:40:17,369
after advising they were dropping the

1035
00:40:21,980 --> 00:40:19,190
court case in a statement they said

1036
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:21,990
having carefully considered its position

1037
00:40:25,460 --> 00:40:23,520
in the light of the judgment of the

1038
00:40:28,670 --> 00:40:25,470
Court of Appeal on the first of april

1039
00:40:31,630 --> 00:40:28,680
2010 the BCA has decided to discontinue

1040
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:31,640
its libel action against Simon Singh as

1041
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:34,410
previously made clear the BCA brought

1042
00:40:37,940 --> 00:40:36,210
the claim because it considered that

1043
00:40:41,420 --> 00:40:37,950
Simon Singh had made a serious

1044
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:41,430
allegation against its reputation namely

1045
00:40:47,870 --> 00:40:43,920
that the BCA promoted treatments that

1046
00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:47,880
are new to be bogus the BCA now feels

1047
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:50,040
that the time is right for the matter to

1048
00:40:56,420 --> 00:40:53,520
draw to a close so as recently as April

1049
00:40:57,380 --> 00:40:56,430
the first 2010 Simon won the right to

1050
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:57,390
appeal

1051
00:41:02,870 --> 00:40:59,760
the initial decision by Mr Justice ed

1052
00:41:05,750 --> 00:41:02,880
over the meaning of the word bogus Lord

1053
00:41:08,210 --> 00:41:05,760
Justice judge Lord Justice neuberger and

1054
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:08,220
Lord Justice sadly ruled unanimously

1055
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:11,520
that Singh had the right to appeal that

1056
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:14,610
his article was opinion or comment they

1057
00:41:19,490 --> 00:41:17,760
said quote this litigation has almost

1058
00:41:21,620 --> 00:41:19,500
certainly had a chilling effect on

1059
00:41:24,050 --> 00:41:21,630
public debate which might otherwise have

1060
00:41:26,390 --> 00:41:24,060
assisted potential patients to make

1061
00:41:29,870 --> 00:41:26,400
informed choices about the possible use

1062
00:41:31,610 --> 00:41:29,880
of chiropractic so before the case was

1063
00:41:34,190 --> 00:41:31,620
dropped Singh had stated that he would

1064
00:41:35,870 --> 00:41:34,200
continue to defend his position even

1065
00:41:39,230 --> 00:41:35,880
though he expected the case would cost

1066
00:41:41,570 --> 00:41:39,240
him in excess of 1 million pounds he has

1067
00:41:44,990 --> 00:41:41,580
already spent more than 100,000 pounds

1068
00:41:46,790 --> 00:41:45,000
of his own money defending the case now

1069
00:41:49,550 --> 00:41:46,800
the action taken by the BCA has

1070
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:49,560
backfired to some extent and resulted in

1071
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:51,690
significant scrutiny of chiropractic

1072
00:41:56,270 --> 00:41:54,090
treatment in the UK and in particular

1073
00:41:58,490 --> 00:41:56,280
following complaints to the Advertising

1074
00:42:00,740 --> 00:41:58,500
Standards Authority one in four

1075
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:00,750
chiropractors in Britain are currently

1076
00:42:04,850 --> 00:42:03,330
under investigation for allegedly making

1077
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:04,860
misleading claims in their

1078
00:42:10,430 --> 00:42:07,490
advertisements and in a related

1079
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:10,440
defensive move another chiropractic body

1080
00:42:15,770 --> 00:42:12,450
called the MEC Timoney Association of

1081
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:15,780
chiropractors or the MCA deleted their

1082
00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:18,330
website for fear of retribution and

1083
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:22,110
advised its members to do the same in a

1084
00:42:28,070 --> 00:42:24,090
leaked email they told their members

1085
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:28,080
this remove all the blue MCA patient

1086
00:42:32,270 --> 00:42:30,330
information leaflets or any patient

1087
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:32,280
information leaflets of your own that

1088
00:42:38,330 --> 00:42:35,910
state you treat whiplash colic or other

1089
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:38,340
childhood problems in your clinic or at

1090
00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:39,930
any other site where they might be

1091
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:42,060
displayed with your contact details on

1092
00:42:47,450 --> 00:42:44,400
them do not use them until further

1093
00:42:49,370 --> 00:42:47,460
notice the MCA are working on an interim

1094
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:49,380
replacement leaflet which will be sent

1095
00:42:54,740 --> 00:42:52,290
to you shortly well pretty amazing stuff

1096
00:42:56,420 --> 00:42:54,750
and even here in Australia we were not

1097
00:43:00,800 --> 00:42:56,430
immune from complaints by chiropractors

1098
00:43:02,390 --> 00:43:00,810
in October 2009 Australian skeptics had

1099
00:43:04,670 --> 00:43:02,400
a complaint lodged with the healthcare

1100
00:43:06,890 --> 00:43:04,680
Complaints Commission following the

1101
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:06,900
publication of Singh's original guardian

1102
00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:09,330
article on our website it was

1103
00:43:12,890 --> 00:43:11,190
republished across the world

1104
00:43:14,660 --> 00:43:12,900
with the libelous statement removed on

1105
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:14,670
the one-year anniversary of original

1106
00:43:19,609 --> 00:43:17,730
publication an Australian chiropractor

1107
00:43:22,190 --> 00:43:19,619
Joseph erano wrote a letter to

1108
00:43:24,470 --> 00:43:22,200
Australian skeptics with a detailed but

1109
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:24,480
somewhat rambling rebuff of the article

1110
00:43:29,260 --> 00:43:26,490
and when he did not receive a response

1111
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:29,270
to his liking he went to the H Triple C

1112
00:43:34,819 --> 00:43:31,970
the complaint was subsequently dismissed

1113
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:34,829
now of the case being dropped against

1114
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:37,770
him Simon Singh had this to say the case

1115
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:39,930
is not quite over because we still have

1116
00:43:44,809 --> 00:43:42,450
to argue over costs having backed down

1117
00:43:46,849 --> 00:43:44,819
and dropped the case i expect the BCA to

1118
00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:46,859
pay my legal bills of approximately

1119
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:50,760
200,000 pounds I fully expect the BCA to

1120
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:52,800
argue that they should not pay all my

1121
00:43:57,230 --> 00:43:55,290
costs but I think this is the very least

1122
00:43:59,329 --> 00:43:57,240
that they should do because this entire

1123
00:44:03,230 --> 00:43:59,339
legal battle has been instigated by the

1124
00:44:05,809 --> 00:44:03,240
BCA he also told BBC News other

1125
00:44:08,359 --> 00:44:05,819
scientists science writers bloggers

1126
00:44:10,730 --> 00:44:08,369
investigative journalists human rights

1127
00:44:13,370 --> 00:44:10,740
activists all get threatened with these

1128
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:13,380
libel suits and at the end of the day

1129
00:44:17,210 --> 00:44:15,359
the people who lose out are the general

1130
00:44:19,370 --> 00:44:17,220
public because we don't get to find out

1131
00:44:22,309 --> 00:44:19,380
the real truth because these libel suits

1132
00:44:23,990 --> 00:44:22,319
just stop good journalism so the

1133
00:44:27,290 --> 00:44:24,000
decision by the BCA to withdraw the

1134
00:44:29,390 --> 00:44:27,300
action despite being quote advised there

1135
00:44:31,819 --> 00:44:29,400
are strong grounds for appeal against

1136
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:31,829
the Court of Appeal is a victory for

1137
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:34,770
journalists and science writers Simon

1138
00:44:38,809 --> 00:44:36,810
Singh said he was hugely relieved but

1139
00:44:40,910 --> 00:44:38,819
expressed his annoyance that libel

1140
00:44:42,859 --> 00:44:40,920
actions continued to be used to block

1141
00:44:46,460 --> 00:44:42,869
what he viewed as legitimate scientific

1142
00:44:48,650 --> 00:44:46,470
inquiry and debate as of today the

1143
00:44:51,380 --> 00:44:48,660
Guardian has reposted Simon's original

1144
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:51,390
article and comments are open so if

1145
00:44:56,180 --> 00:44:53,280
you'd like to read it and leave your

1146
00:45:00,079 --> 00:44:56,190
comments head to dub dub dub guardian co

1147
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:00,089
uk forward slash comment is free forward

1148
00:45:08,569 --> 00:45:05,130
slash 2008 /a pralhad / 19 forward slash

1149
00:45:10,940 --> 00:45:08,579
controversies in science dash health you

1150
00:45:14,809 --> 00:45:10,950
can google it I had trouble finding it

1151
00:45:17,030 --> 00:45:14,819
sorry for the long URL now even though

1152
00:45:18,980 --> 00:45:17,040
Simon's case has now been dropped libel

1153
00:45:21,530 --> 00:45:18,990
reform is still desperately needed in

1154
00:45:23,780 --> 00:45:21,540
the UK so if you haven't yet signed the

1155
00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:23,790
petition please head to dub dub dub

1156
00:45:28,190 --> 00:45:25,110
libel reform

1157
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:28,200
org forward slash sign and you don't

1158
00:45:33,740 --> 00:45:30,330
have to be a resident of the UK to sign

1159
00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:33,750
this petition and I also recommend for

1160
00:45:37,940 --> 00:45:35,880
up-to-date news and links to other media

1161
00:45:40,580 --> 00:45:37,950
coverage head over to sense about

1162
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:40,590
science or if you're on twitter follow

1163
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:43,050
at jack of kent who's been blogging this

1164
00:45:47,930 --> 00:45:46,050
case from day one so also as well

1165
00:45:50,210 --> 00:45:47,940
homeopathy awareness week draws to a

1166
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:50,220
close I've written an article called

1167
00:45:57,350 --> 00:45:53,010
homeopathy there's nothing in it for the

1168
00:45:59,270 --> 00:45:57,360
blog called the punch Comte you it's my

1169
00:46:01,370 --> 00:45:59,280
first piece for them so please click on

1170
00:46:03,740 --> 00:46:01,380
over to increase my page views and leave

1171
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:03,750
a comment if you feel like it if I get

1172
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:05,370
lots of hint for lots of comments then

1173
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:08,910
they might just ask me back and finally

1174
00:46:14,210 --> 00:46:11,850
for today on Thursday April the 22nd

1175
00:46:17,180 --> 00:46:14,220
we're calling on all skeptical bloggers

1176
00:46:19,730 --> 00:46:17,190
to post on you only like me because I'm

1177
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:19,740
good in blog day on this day we're

1178
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:21,450
asking bloggers to write about dealing

1179
00:46:26,420 --> 00:46:24,450
with blog post comments trolls how you

1180
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:26,430
maintain your site and tips for those

1181
00:46:31,550 --> 00:46:28,290
who'd like to try starting to write a

1182
00:46:34,130 --> 00:46:31,560
skeptical blog and also our own Kylie

1183
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:34,140
Sturgis on her token skeptic podcast

1184
00:46:38,660 --> 00:46:36,510
will feature audio from last year's

1185
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:38,670
dragoncon blogging panel which also

1186
00:46:45,730 --> 00:46:42,930
features me so head to dub dub dub she

1187
00:46:48,170 --> 00:46:45,740
thought calm for more details and

1188
00:46:50,030 --> 00:46:48,180
actually coming up in this week's think

1189
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:50,040
tank I talked a little bit about some of

1190
00:46:54,830 --> 00:46:51,510
the things that have been happening on

1191
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:54,840
my blog skeptics book calm of late so to

1192
00:46:59,060 --> 00:46:56,850
all our listeners happy world homeopathy

1193
00:47:01,340 --> 00:46:59,070
awareness week and happy chiropractic

1194
00:47:13,170 --> 00:47:01,350
awareness week and until next time this

1195
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:16,540
join us now for drinking skeptically in

1196
00:47:29,079 --> 00:47:26,330
the think tank I did it again i made a

1197
00:47:30,670 --> 00:47:29,089
laugh I love it welcome to the think

1198
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:30,680
tank and i'd like to welcome our

1199
00:47:36,820 --> 00:47:32,810
favorite laughing looming girl joe

1200
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:36,830
veteran thank you Richard and I love it

1201
00:47:43,839 --> 00:47:41,930
laughing not dr. agent hello oh well fed

1202
00:47:47,260 --> 00:47:43,849
I reckon we could do a whole podcast of

1203
00:47:49,270 --> 00:47:47,270
me and dr. heb going and you're probably

1204
00:47:50,829 --> 00:47:49,280
could actually I think I think you're

1205
00:47:54,730 --> 00:47:50,839
probably could I think anyone is one of

1206
00:47:56,740 --> 00:47:54,740
here acting nice to be back here in our

1207
00:47:59,890 --> 00:47:56,750
favorite club down the street where Joe

1208
00:48:02,560 --> 00:47:59,900
you had a lovely meal I did I did I know

1209
00:48:05,050 --> 00:48:02,570
I numbed hastily you did actually rach

1210
00:48:06,609 --> 00:48:05,060
and I nommed earlier today's who yeah

1211
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:06,619
I'm actually not hungry i don't know why

1212
00:48:11,170 --> 00:48:09,530
but after that lunch but i wasn't a huge

1213
00:48:13,570 --> 00:48:11,180
lunch i didn't have breakfast so it

1214
00:48:15,849 --> 00:48:13,580
should have anyway so anyway I think I

1215
00:48:18,130 --> 00:48:15,859
let's just want to know how I know me

1216
00:48:20,589 --> 00:48:18,140
for the three of us thank you in fact

1217
00:48:22,030 --> 00:48:20,599
we're probably not hungry because you

1218
00:48:23,740 --> 00:48:22,040
didn't eat very much therefore you're

1219
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:23,750
not hungry which is sort of like the

1220
00:48:29,140 --> 00:48:26,690
philosophy of homeopathy isn't it the

1221
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:29,150
less you eat the less hungry you are how

1222
00:48:36,190 --> 00:48:30,890
does that work well how does homeopathy

1223
00:48:38,980 --> 00:48:36,200
work I mention this because of world

1224
00:48:41,500 --> 00:48:38,990
homeopathy awareness week or homeopathy

1225
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:41,510
world awareness week or whatever they're

1226
00:48:46,030 --> 00:48:43,970
calling it they're going at wha wow we

1227
00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:46,040
are trying to come up with our own akron

1228
00:48:51,970 --> 00:48:49,760
ism or acronym acronym not agonism yeah

1229
00:48:52,329 --> 00:48:51,980
we just the awareness week power to to

1230
00:48:57,819 --> 00:48:52,339
be

1231
00:49:01,779 --> 00:48:57,829
oh yes I wish it was a load of a barrel

1232
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:01,789
of laughs it's interesting a five years

1233
00:49:06,069 --> 00:49:04,400
ago they had world this world homeopathy

1234
00:49:10,180 --> 00:49:06,079
Awareness Week and they had a little

1235
00:49:11,979 --> 00:49:10,190
stand down here a little tense or lots

1236
00:49:13,630 --> 00:49:11,989
of tents set up down at Circular key

1237
00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:13,640
here in sitting in the little park in

1238
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:16,640
circular key so I trotted down on us

1239
00:49:22,059 --> 00:49:18,410
have a look look look around and I

1240
00:49:24,249 --> 00:49:22,069
noticed that they were advertising that

1241
00:49:26,910 --> 00:49:24,259
they would appear or the New South Wales

1242
00:49:29,709 --> 00:49:26,920
homeopathy Association would appear

1243
00:49:33,130 --> 00:49:29,719
shortly thereafter at the babies and

1244
00:49:35,049 --> 00:49:33,140
children's Expo which I subsequently

1245
00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:35,059
went to with our friend Peter ratbag

1246
00:49:39,759 --> 00:49:37,609
bowditch and we went to the stand of the

1247
00:49:41,499 --> 00:49:39,769
homeopathy people and they told us that

1248
00:49:44,859 --> 00:49:41,509
yes you can use homeopathy for

1249
00:49:46,989 --> 00:49:44,869
immunization and we created a big stink

1250
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:46,999
about it at the time if people want to

1251
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:49,210
read that report simply Google

1252
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:53,210
homeopathy exposed again and Saunders

1253
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:55,249
all that in google and you'll find my

1254
00:49:59,469 --> 00:49:57,680
report from five years ago and at the

1255
00:50:01,890 --> 00:49:59,479
time we thought wow we've really busted

1256
00:50:04,989 --> 00:50:01,900
them here we are homeopathy homeopathy

1257
00:50:06,670 --> 00:50:04,999
advocating hung up traffic vaccine we've

1258
00:50:08,979 --> 00:50:06,680
got him you know they've sent it in

1259
00:50:10,989 --> 00:50:08,989
public well five years later they're

1260
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:10,999
hardly making a secret of a doctor aging

1261
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:13,249
well remember months a month ago Joe you

1262
00:50:19,630 --> 00:50:16,249
brought a paper from the London journal

1263
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:19,640
of medicine from 1851 by dr. David

1264
00:50:24,130 --> 00:50:22,160
McCormack overly where he'd said in

1265
00:50:28,479 --> 00:50:24,140
quite flowery language that it was

1266
00:50:30,219 --> 00:50:28,489
and then Peter Bowditch found a

1267
00:50:34,390 --> 00:50:30,229
paper from I think four or five years

1268
00:50:37,269 --> 00:50:34,400
before that saying it was nonsense so on

1269
00:50:39,489 --> 00:50:37,279
the tenth of April earlier this week was

1270
00:50:42,670 --> 00:50:39,499
the birthday of Samuel Hahnemann happy

1271
00:50:47,279 --> 00:50:42,680
birth hey who you with actually where is

1272
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:47,289
Samuel Hahnemann he's sick today hahaha

1273
00:50:55,930 --> 00:50:54,070
I just know and the thing is you know

1274
00:50:57,970 --> 00:50:55,940
five years ago the land such at that big

1275
00:51:00,100 --> 00:50:57,980
study where they basically came out and

1276
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:00,110
said that it's nonsense there's nothing

1277
00:51:05,380 --> 00:51:03,290
in it it's just um you know it's a

1278
00:51:08,650 --> 00:51:05,390
fraudulent in some aspects it's

1279
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:08,660
dangerous it's yes because the thing is

1280
00:51:15,790 --> 00:51:11,570
that you know like like so much of the

1281
00:51:19,140 --> 00:51:15,800
alt med dialogue it's been turned into

1282
00:51:21,670 --> 00:51:19,150
almost a postmodernist debate where

1283
00:51:27,340 --> 00:51:21,680
everything is equal and everything is on

1284
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:27,350
the same sort of level so all ideas are

1285
00:51:32,260 --> 00:51:30,530
valid exactly so it almost seems like it

1286
00:51:35,590 --> 00:51:32,270
doesn't matter what you put in front of

1287
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:35,600
them it doesn't change what's being said

1288
00:51:40,210 --> 00:51:38,330
it doesn't change the outcome they're

1289
00:51:43,660 --> 00:51:40,220
still you know I mean that study from

1290
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:43,670
the Lancer that they're still waving

1291
00:51:47,260 --> 00:51:45,770
that in the air and saying you know that

1292
00:51:49,150 --> 00:51:47,270
actually showed that there was a benefit

1293
00:51:51,580 --> 00:51:49,160
to homeopathy it didn't show that at all

1294
00:51:53,590 --> 00:51:51,590
but in terms of how they read the

1295
00:51:54,460 --> 00:51:53,600
language they'll wave it in the areas

1296
00:51:57,220 --> 00:51:54,470
you could actually had a positive

1297
00:51:59,290 --> 00:51:57,230
outcome for when it didn't okay but i

1298
00:52:01,300 --> 00:51:59,300
think that reason raises a really

1299
00:52:05,410 --> 00:52:01,310
interesting point Joe and this also

1300
00:52:08,260 --> 00:52:05,420
leads onto a debate that Meryl Dory

1301
00:52:09,940 --> 00:52:08,270
wanted to conduct with somebody who is

1302
00:52:12,490 --> 00:52:09,950
an immunologist in australia this week

1303
00:52:14,620 --> 00:52:12,500
and that also turned into an argument

1304
00:52:16,330 --> 00:52:14,630
about well both sides are equal so let's

1305
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:16,340
have a big song and dance public debate

1306
00:52:22,300 --> 00:52:17,690
which we might talk about a little bit

1307
00:52:24,370 --> 00:52:22,310
later but why I don't you know it

1308
00:52:25,690 --> 00:52:24,380
puzzles me at late at night at three

1309
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:25,700
o'clock in the morning when I'm not

1310
00:52:31,180 --> 00:52:28,370
sleeping because I'm stressed or annoyed

1311
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:31,190
usually annoyed actually I wonder about

1312
00:52:36,310 --> 00:52:33,650
that you know I wonder is it that these

1313
00:52:39,610 --> 00:52:36,320
people have a compartmentalized part in

1314
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:39,620
their brain or is it is it that is it be

1315
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:41,690
because I've not had any scientific

1316
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:44,570
training I suspect that's a large part

1317
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:45,530
of it

1318
00:52:49,540 --> 00:52:47,930
but I think you're right I think that's

1319
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:49,550
a very low that's not but they don't

1320
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:50,960
always clearly because there are a lot

1321
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:52,730
of people how they could have had a very

1322
00:52:58,660 --> 00:52:54,770
good scientific training and is still

1323
00:53:01,420 --> 00:52:58,670
believe okay I mean as you know I mean I

1324
00:53:06,310 --> 00:53:01,430
suppose that we know as skeptics that

1325
00:53:09,340 --> 00:53:06,320
even we aren't immune from having weird

1326
00:53:12,370 --> 00:53:09,350
ideas about things but these people take

1327
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:12,380
it to an extreme where their ideas are

1328
00:53:18,910 --> 00:53:15,890
so weird and and they can hold those

1329
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:18,920
ideas despite having a good scientific

1330
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:22,370
training in some cases unlike Merle dory

1331
00:53:27,460 --> 00:53:26,000
who as she says her brain but then you

1332
00:53:29,530 --> 00:53:27,470
know you're so right because Karen

1333
00:53:30,970 --> 00:53:29,540
Phelps is one of those people and and

1334
00:53:34,090 --> 00:53:30,980
listens you don't know Karen Phelps

1335
00:53:35,650 --> 00:53:34,100
she's a very highly trained medical

1336
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:35,660
doctor in Australia she was the head of

1337
00:53:41,830 --> 00:53:38,450
the Australian Medical Association she's

1338
00:53:45,010 --> 00:53:41,840
a professor an academic professor and

1339
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:45,020
she became very highly regarded in the

1340
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,090
public eye in Australia for her role in

1341
00:53:53,260 --> 00:53:49,760
the AMA and then she brought into this

1342
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:53,270
place called the you clinic which is a

1343
00:53:58,060 --> 00:53:55,250
clinic for complementary medicine and

1344
00:54:00,870 --> 00:53:58,070
now she goes on to places like morning

1345
00:54:04,030 --> 00:54:00,880
shows and talks about how autism can be

1346
00:54:05,410 --> 00:54:04,040
modified or potentially cured by

1347
00:54:07,420 --> 00:54:05,420
changing your diet and taking

1348
00:54:09,370 --> 00:54:07,430
supplements and that's the most

1349
00:54:12,490 --> 00:54:09,380
dangerous thing isn't it because you've

1350
00:54:17,140 --> 00:54:12,500
got it you've got a face on of good

1351
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:17,150
medicine presenting yeah that's

1352
00:54:20,620 --> 00:54:19,280
right yeah really yeah and and that's

1353
00:54:22,130 --> 00:54:20,630
actually I think one of the worst things

1354
00:54:24,589 --> 00:54:22,140
is that

1355
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:24,599
you know when there used to be a time

1356
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:27,450
when this stuff existed separately from

1357
00:54:33,230 --> 00:54:31,170
from medicine and now as we're seeing in

1358
00:54:35,390 --> 00:54:33,240
a lot of cancer centers which are taking

1359
00:54:37,069 --> 00:54:35,400
on conventional which is sorry which are

1360
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:37,079
taking on this integrated medicine

1361
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:39,690
approach it's me it's bringing it into

1362
00:54:45,259 --> 00:54:43,170
the mainstream and making it I mean to

1363
00:54:49,579 --> 00:54:45,269
the person out there who isn't familiar

1364
00:54:51,470 --> 00:54:49,589
with the alternative medicine they are

1365
00:54:56,930 --> 00:54:51,480
they're coming into this with the idea

1366
00:54:59,809 --> 00:54:56,940
that well if my doctors are sharing

1367
00:55:02,059 --> 00:54:59,819
rooms with the naturopath and an

1368
00:55:04,970 --> 00:55:02,069
acupuncturist well then surely it must

1369
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:04,980
be valid it gives it complete validity

1370
00:55:09,650 --> 00:55:06,930
this reminds me absolutely of the

1371
00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:09,660
pharmacy situation whether the one big

1372
00:55:13,579 --> 00:55:11,760
room with a pharmacy with a pharmacist

1373
00:55:15,460 --> 00:55:13,589
down the back and the little platform

1374
00:55:18,500 --> 00:55:15,470
their way stand up on a little platform

1375
00:55:21,589 --> 00:55:18,510
dispensing their prescriptions sharing

1376
00:55:24,109 --> 00:55:21,599
the same premises as magic and

1377
00:55:27,230 --> 00:55:24,119
witchcraft and in fact I am I just

1378
00:55:29,900 --> 00:55:27,240
finished reading a really good book by

1379
00:55:33,349 --> 00:55:29,910
Rose Shapiro which I've mentioned to you

1380
00:55:34,999 --> 00:55:33,359
before Rachel hmm and if anyone out

1381
00:55:37,329 --> 00:55:35,009
there hasn't read this i recommend you

1382
00:55:41,210 --> 00:55:37,339
know it's another book to add to the the

1383
00:55:44,749 --> 00:55:41,220
skeptics bible so to speak skeptics

1384
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:44,759
encyclopedia called suckas 'how

1385
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:46,650
alternative medicine makes fools of us

1386
00:55:50,269 --> 00:55:48,930
all heard about that it's a it's a

1387
00:55:53,269 --> 00:55:50,279
really really good book in it and it's

1388
00:55:56,569 --> 00:55:53,279
um it's written she I think she is

1389
00:55:58,339 --> 00:55:56,579
journalist and you know as I said to

1390
00:55:59,420 --> 00:55:58,349
Rachel you know I get to the point so

1391
00:56:01,279 --> 00:55:59,430
much with a lot of the stuff where I

1392
00:56:03,230 --> 00:56:01,289
think wow I think I really sort of

1393
00:56:04,910 --> 00:56:03,240
learnt you know I don't think I'm gonna

1394
00:56:05,779 --> 00:56:04,920
learn anything new about homeopathy or I

1395
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:05,789
don't think I'm going to learn anything

1396
00:56:10,039 --> 00:56:08,130
new about chiropractic and the stuff

1397
00:56:12,170 --> 00:56:10,049
they get up to and and and the way they

1398
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:12,180
sort of manipulate evidence and so on

1399
00:56:15,759 --> 00:56:13,890
and and I found reading this book that i

1400
00:56:18,319 --> 00:56:15,769
actually did learn a lot of new things

1401
00:56:19,849 --> 00:56:18,329
but one of the things that she comments

1402
00:56:23,269 --> 00:56:19,859
on which i think is really important is

1403
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:23,279
this notion that for example in a cancer

1404
00:56:29,730 --> 00:56:26,970
center that you can still provide an

1405
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:29,740
environment of nurturing and of

1406
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:32,890
and healing so to speak without it being

1407
00:56:36,660 --> 00:56:35,170
tainted by you can still

1408
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:36,670
provide an environment for people with

1409
00:56:43,410 --> 00:56:40,240
cancer that is relaxing and that is warm

1410
00:56:46,130 --> 00:56:43,420
and welcoming and will you know promote

1411
00:56:49,530 --> 00:56:46,140
healing without it being based on

1412
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:49,540
dishonored dishonest idea of what that

1413
00:56:53,609 --> 00:56:51,970
means yeah well speaking of books Joe I

1414
00:56:58,020 --> 00:56:53,619
received an email this week from a

1415
00:57:00,240 --> 00:56:58,030
listener her name's Marie Longo and she

1416
00:57:02,790 --> 00:57:00,250
wrote me quite a long email and I have

1417
00:57:05,310 --> 00:57:02,800
to apologize to Marie because it took me

1418
00:57:07,380 --> 00:57:05,320
a little bit longer than I should have

1419
00:57:09,750 --> 00:57:07,390
to get back to her and in fact think she

1420
00:57:13,770 --> 00:57:09,760
emailed you in the meantime Richard I'm

1421
00:57:15,990 --> 00:57:13,780
sorry Maria I'm very busy but anyway um

1422
00:57:17,820 --> 00:57:16,000
she did send a very interesting email

1423
00:57:20,460 --> 00:57:17,830
and this is also about a book Joe but

1424
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:20,470
it's not about a debunking book the

1425
00:57:27,570 --> 00:57:23,170
author Jodi Picoult I think that's how

1426
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:27,580
you pronounce it here p i cou LT she's a

1427
00:57:32,130 --> 00:57:29,650
best-selling international author and

1428
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:32,140
she's written her new bestseller which

1429
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:36,130
is called house rules now Murray wrote

1430
00:57:40,410 --> 00:57:37,570
to me because she was particularly

1431
00:57:42,780 --> 00:57:40,420
concerned about some sections of this

1432
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:42,790
book and that was in fact she has been

1433
00:57:47,550 --> 00:57:44,890
very specific she's actually cited the

1434
00:57:50,580 --> 00:57:47,560
page numbers in the paper bag but

1435
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:50,590
specifically it's because the story

1436
00:57:55,500 --> 00:57:52,720
apparently centers around an 18 year old

1437
00:57:57,870 --> 00:57:55,510
boy who has Asperger's syndrome and he's

1438
00:57:59,450 --> 00:57:57,880
accused of murder and towards the

1439
00:58:01,800 --> 00:57:59,460
beginning of the book the author

1440
00:58:04,910 --> 00:58:01,810
discusses the connection between his

1441
00:58:07,859 --> 00:58:04,920
Asperger's and his vaccinations yeah

1442
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:07,869
yeah I mean this is a it's a novel so

1443
00:58:12,330 --> 00:58:10,690
it's fiction but Murray writes that

1444
00:58:14,609 --> 00:58:12,340
although both sides of the argument are

1445
00:58:17,490 --> 00:58:14,619
presented it isn't particularly balanced

1446
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:17,500
and she said it left the reader with the

1447
00:58:21,450 --> 00:58:19,090
impression that there must be a link

1448
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:21,460
between that and she I just want to

1449
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:27,250
quote from a section on page 498 where

1450
00:58:32,270 --> 00:58:29,890
the character says he was perfectly

1451
00:58:34,460 --> 00:58:32,280
happy baby Emma says

1452
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:34,470
for a moment she can't speak and she

1453
00:58:38,270 --> 00:58:36,450
shakes her head we gave him his shots

1454
00:58:40,550 --> 00:58:38,280
and within a week this very loving

1455
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:40,560
interactive verbal boy stopped being the

1456
00:58:45,260 --> 00:58:43,050
child I knew suddenly he was lying on

1457
00:58:46,940 --> 00:58:45,270
his side spinning the wheels of his toy

1458
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:46,950
trucks instead of zooming them around

1459
00:58:50,450 --> 00:58:49,440
the living room now that sounds like

1460
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:50,460
something straight out of the

1461
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:52,050
anti-vaxxers handbook that sounds like

1462
00:58:57,380 --> 00:58:53,610
something straight out of Jenny McCarthy

1463
00:58:59,540 --> 00:58:57,390
yeah so she said Murray says that the

1464
00:59:02,120 --> 00:58:59,550
book is not primarily about autism or

1465
00:59:04,660 --> 00:59:02,130
vaccines but she said that for someone

1466
00:59:07,610 --> 00:59:04,670
who is not educated and doesn't know

1467
00:59:09,500 --> 00:59:07,620
they would come away thinking that there

1468
00:59:11,420 --> 00:59:09,510
must be a connection and apparently this

1469
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:11,430
author I've not read her stuff before

1470
00:59:15,650 --> 00:59:13,170
but apparently she's got a reputation

1471
00:59:18,500 --> 00:59:15,660
for doing very precise and thorough

1472
00:59:21,230 --> 00:59:18,510
research before she writes a novel mmm I

1473
00:59:22,850 --> 00:59:21,240
think she I think she wrote that I could

1474
00:59:25,460 --> 00:59:22,860
be completely wrong here but I think she

1475
00:59:27,260 --> 00:59:25,470
wrote that book my sister's keeper which

1476
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:27,270
that movie was based on recently just a

1477
00:59:33,470 --> 00:59:30,810
young girl with cancer okay if it's what

1478
00:59:34,820 --> 00:59:33,480
I'm thinking of I don't know don't know

1479
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:34,830
this is the first time I've heard of her

1480
00:59:42,830 --> 00:59:38,450
stuff but um the funny thing is that

1481
00:59:45,230 --> 00:59:42,840
Murray said that she kind of was ranting

1482
00:59:47,570 --> 00:59:45,240
about it and you know somebody said to

1483
00:59:49,820 --> 00:59:47,580
her but it's only a book and she said

1484
00:59:51,740 --> 00:59:49,830
yeah but the average person gets the

1485
00:59:53,900 --> 00:59:51,750
information and it's really a shame

1486
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:53,910
because in this instance Jodi Picoult

1487
00:59:58,550 --> 00:59:56,610
who is has a huge audience and

1488
01:00:02,600 --> 00:59:58,560
apparently a lot of women are just

1489
01:00:04,130 --> 01:00:02,610
absolutely she's because she um she's

1490
01:00:06,020 --> 01:00:04,140
probably one of those people who I mean

1491
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:06,030
I don't know she's ever been an Oprah

1492
01:00:10,010 --> 01:00:08,490
Winfrey book club type book but she's

1493
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:10,020
the sort of author who you'd find on

1494
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:12,570
that kind of list which would really be

1495
01:00:18,050 --> 01:00:14,490
very heavily read by women who yeah

1496
01:00:20,180 --> 01:00:18,060
would you know would perhaps have you

1497
01:00:24,890 --> 01:00:20,190
influenced by them yes how do you have

1498
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:24,900
children Nancy that was then go man yeah

1499
01:00:28,810 --> 01:00:26,610
so in that in that sense and it's really

1500
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:28,820
disappointing that she didn't bother to

1501
01:00:33,230 --> 01:00:31,410
take a responsible position

1502
01:00:35,359 --> 01:00:33,240
particularly with respect to something

1503
01:00:36,740 --> 01:00:35,369
that's important I mean is I don't know

1504
01:00:38,359 --> 01:00:36,750
what I would say with that you didn't

1505
01:00:40,190 --> 01:00:38,369
bother to take responsible position I

1506
01:00:42,109 --> 01:00:40,200
wonder whether she knew what the

1507
01:00:44,569 --> 01:00:42,119
responsible position was because I mean

1508
01:00:46,190 --> 01:00:44,579
we don't know what her position is on

1509
01:00:49,339 --> 01:00:46,200
the issue and we don't know where she

1510
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:49,349
got her information on so you know she

1511
01:00:53,299 --> 01:00:51,839
aight look I would I would be reluctant

1512
01:00:55,010 --> 01:00:53,309
to think that anyone would think the

1513
01:00:57,470 --> 01:00:55,020
responsible position on pax hands would

1514
01:01:00,440 --> 01:00:57,480
be to be you know erring on the side of

1515
01:01:02,500 --> 01:01:00,450
the anti-vaxxers views but we don't know

1516
01:01:05,150 --> 01:01:02,510
what her thinking was when she wrote it

1517
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:05,160
but nevertheless the consequences are

1518
01:01:09,380 --> 01:01:07,530
that her readers would well this is true

1519
01:01:11,210 --> 01:01:09,390
I mean a plan succeed and in fact there

1520
01:01:13,940 --> 01:01:11,220
was a couple of responses today which I

1521
01:01:16,490 --> 01:01:13,950
found through Twitter and they were blog

1522
01:01:20,029 --> 01:01:16,500
posts from adults who have suffered from

1523
01:01:22,700 --> 01:01:20,039
a SD and they expressed the fact that

1524
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:22,710
they loved her work and Marie says the

1525
01:01:26,539 --> 01:01:24,210
same thing she says it's a great read

1526
01:01:29,029 --> 01:01:26,549
but they were very concerned about the

1527
01:01:31,849 --> 01:01:29,039
way that she had represented autism and

1528
01:01:33,859 --> 01:01:31,859
ASD in this book so i SPECT that she

1529
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:33,869
might get a bit of a backlash this is

1530
01:01:39,740 --> 01:01:38,010
possibly so um you have anything to know

1531
01:01:42,319 --> 01:01:39,750
if interesting to know whether she has

1532
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:42,329
actually been approached about it was

1533
01:01:47,189 --> 01:01:44,130
she's commented on a roll

1534
01:01:50,099 --> 01:01:47,199
yeah I don't know I mean I received this

1535
01:01:52,919 --> 01:01:50,109
email on good friday from Murray which

1536
01:01:54,989 --> 01:01:52,929
was April the fourth wasn't it so a

1537
01:01:56,789 --> 01:01:54,999
little while ago but it was only today

1538
01:01:58,529 --> 01:01:56,799
that it started to appear on Twitter so

1539
01:02:02,699 --> 01:01:58,539
maybe it's people are just starting to

1540
01:02:07,049 --> 01:02:02,709
get to Paige 498 we're very excited here

1541
01:02:08,429 --> 01:02:07,059
what well no she's given me the specific

1542
01:02:11,099 --> 01:02:08,439
sections of the book so if you have a

1543
01:02:14,519 --> 01:02:11,109
copy of the paper bag please go to page

1544
01:02:16,769 --> 01:02:14,529
46 247 I was named the book once more

1545
01:02:20,519 --> 01:02:16,779
it's called house rules I was ruled by

1546
01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:20,529
jodi picoult page 235 and Paige 498

1547
01:02:25,979 --> 01:02:22,689
there you I men tear them from your book

1548
01:02:28,339 --> 01:02:25,989
and eat them well you and I spotted that

1549
01:02:31,469 --> 01:02:28,349
book when we were having we went for an

1550
01:02:34,019 --> 01:02:31,479
exercise walk actually yes and we walked

1551
01:02:40,469 --> 01:02:34,029
to the airport yeah and what did we do

1552
01:02:42,059 --> 01:02:40,479
there no we not nominated now we walked

1553
01:02:44,309 --> 01:02:42,069
all the way to the airport which was a

1554
01:02:46,589 --> 01:02:44,319
long walk what do we do here oh let's go

1555
01:02:48,900 --> 01:02:46,599
neat well we went shopping we went to

1556
01:02:50,519 --> 01:02:48,910
the duty free shops and we found a copy

1557
01:02:52,919 --> 01:02:50,529
of house rules but I couldn't remember

1558
01:02:55,709 --> 01:02:52,929
what page number to look at and then we

1559
01:02:58,380 --> 01:02:55,719
ate sushi you ended up walking 17

1560
01:03:00,299 --> 01:02:58,390
kilometers and I walk 20 killing me yeah

1561
01:03:02,279 --> 01:03:00,309
yeah that was matters worth it to go to

1562
01:03:04,109 --> 01:03:02,289
the airport that's right and we both

1563
01:03:08,009 --> 01:03:04,119
thought here we are at the airport when

1564
01:03:10,199 --> 01:03:08,019
we're not getting on a plane it's fun

1565
01:03:13,259 --> 01:03:10,209
it's fun yeah it is fun no Rachel it's

1566
01:03:14,819 --> 01:03:13,269
um something that you were chatting to

1567
01:03:16,140 --> 01:03:14,829
me about actually on our long walk to

1568
01:03:19,679 --> 01:03:16,150
the airport which I found really

1569
01:03:22,109 --> 01:03:19,689
interesting you've got a very successful

1570
01:03:24,749 --> 01:03:22,119
blog of course the skeptics book of poo

1571
01:03:27,779 --> 01:03:24,759
poo which is read by thousands of people

1572
01:03:29,729 --> 01:03:27,789
that's I'm really pleased how popular

1573
01:03:32,789 --> 01:03:29,739
your blog is but you've had an

1574
01:03:35,669 --> 01:03:32,799
interesting series of posts on there

1575
01:03:38,609 --> 01:03:35,679
recently and I'd really love you to tell

1576
01:03:41,299 --> 01:03:38,619
our listeners about that yeah well as I

1577
01:03:44,579 --> 01:03:41,309
said last week in dr. Richie reports i

1578
01:03:46,319 --> 01:03:44,589
blogged about the australian vaccination

1579
01:03:48,299 --> 01:03:46,329
network getting knocked back from paid

1580
01:03:50,309 --> 01:03:48,309
advertising in a babies and mothers

1581
01:03:51,929 --> 01:03:50,319
publication Sydney's child melbourne

1582
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:51,939
Sydney's child melbourne chopra's Bin's

1583
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:52,930
child yeah it's cry

1584
01:03:59,010 --> 01:03:55,930
and merrill very kindly copied and

1585
01:04:02,299 --> 01:03:59,020
pasted my entire blog into her

1586
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:02,309
enewsletter including my url so

1587
01:04:09,150 --> 01:04:06,490
Streisand effect everyone yeah so I had

1588
01:04:11,940 --> 01:04:09,160
a huge increase in heads to my blog and

1589
01:04:13,859 --> 01:04:11,950
of course some of them were people that

1590
01:04:15,809 --> 01:04:13,869
weren't very impressed with my blog no I

1591
01:04:18,420 --> 01:04:15,819
really not and most of them were drive

1592
01:04:20,819 --> 01:04:18,430
by people which means they came by they

1593
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:20,829
said you're awful i'm just going is that

1594
01:04:27,450 --> 01:04:23,650
the term is it drives by air really yeah

1595
01:04:31,140 --> 01:04:27,460
try by posting come past you say this

1596
01:04:32,609 --> 01:04:31,150
blog is awful and then yeah performances

1597
01:04:34,140 --> 01:04:32,619
of people I've been just standing on a

1598
01:04:36,210 --> 01:04:34,150
street corner and you get some who knew

1599
01:04:38,069 --> 01:04:36,220
drives past yelled something at you and

1600
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:38,079
I love the fact that when they do it's

1601
01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:39,730
always completely unintelligible because

1602
01:04:57,030 --> 01:04:46,000
you hear the dis guy like your body

1603
01:04:59,069 --> 01:04:57,040
though something is on TV you know yes

1604
01:05:01,910 --> 01:04:59,079
sir I had I had one of these people drop

1605
01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:01,920
by they should call them Doppler troll

1606
01:05:08,039 --> 01:05:06,160
and um she actually said this blog this

1607
01:05:11,609 --> 01:05:08,049
is the most horrible horrible sight I've

1608
01:05:14,039 --> 01:05:11,619
ever seen Wow a couple of other things

1609
01:05:16,710 --> 01:05:14,049
as well but in fact she came back oh I

1610
01:05:20,730 --> 01:05:16,720
say she but I don't know because it was

1611
01:05:22,799 --> 01:05:20,740
an anonymous poster and then a

1612
01:05:25,260 --> 01:05:22,809
discussion ensued where this person

1613
01:05:27,210 --> 01:05:25,270
eventually in fact she put can i'll just

1614
01:05:30,359 --> 01:05:27,220
say she for the sake of class no but

1615
01:05:33,569 --> 01:05:30,369
yeah okay she came in it or he and

1616
01:05:35,339 --> 01:05:33,579
really I'm just gonna she she dropped by

1617
01:05:37,319 --> 01:05:35,349
she said this is horrible sight she went

1618
01:05:38,670 --> 01:05:37,329
away a day later she came back and said

1619
01:05:41,579 --> 01:05:38,680
oh I'm really sorry I shouldn't have

1620
01:05:44,309 --> 01:05:41,589
said that that was really mean and then

1621
01:05:46,380 --> 01:05:44,319
just began to sort of engage in

1622
01:05:49,799 --> 01:05:46,390
discussion with a few people on the blog

1623
01:05:51,780 --> 01:05:49,809
about her concerns about vaccines and

1624
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:51,790
sort of stuff and then dropped a few

1625
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:53,530
sort of anti vector bombs here and there

1626
01:05:58,339 --> 01:05:54,930
that

1627
01:06:00,500 --> 01:05:58,349
you know things like things like I've

1628
01:06:03,530 --> 01:06:00,510
heard that vaccines are made with beef

1629
01:06:06,020 --> 01:06:03,540
embryos and monkeys livers and live

1630
01:06:09,230 --> 01:06:06,030
chicken blood what was the term you used

1631
01:06:11,870 --> 01:06:09,240
before concerned tall yes Oh Shawn the

1632
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:11,880
blog and I suggested to me that we might

1633
01:06:15,410 --> 01:06:13,200
have on our hands what's known as a

1634
01:06:17,599 --> 01:06:15,420
concerned wrong do you know what that is

1635
01:06:19,549 --> 01:06:17,609
Jack I I know purely because i think

1636
01:06:22,490 --> 01:06:19,559
i've come across one who referred to me

1637
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:22,500
on on it was on the skeptics and comment

1638
01:06:26,930 --> 01:06:24,450
section and on your blog as well as the

1639
01:06:28,819 --> 01:06:26,940
same person i see this would be a person

1640
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:28,829
who comes in feigning great concern over

1641
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:31,170
something so no you're absolutely right

1642
01:06:36,170 --> 01:06:34,410
Joe so concerned trolling is a form of

1643
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:36,180
internet trolling in which someone

1644
01:06:39,170 --> 01:06:37,770
enters a discussion and they claim to be

1645
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:39,180
concerned but then actually they're

1646
01:06:44,930 --> 01:06:42,210
really only there to sort of shift the

1647
01:06:46,579 --> 01:06:44,940
the focus of the discussion away from

1648
01:06:48,410 --> 01:06:46,589
the main problems and they're sort of to

1649
01:06:52,130 --> 01:06:48,420
derail it or to tie you up with

1650
01:06:54,020 --> 01:06:52,140
irrelevant season not so much that more

1651
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:54,030
so to derail it but that can become it

1652
01:06:59,450 --> 01:06:57,170
to tie you up with the relevance ease

1653
01:07:01,880 --> 01:06:59,460
but the way that you spot a concern

1654
01:07:04,220 --> 01:07:01,890
troll is usually they'll be using a sock

1655
01:07:06,710 --> 01:07:04,230
puppet which means a false name and a

1656
01:07:08,359 --> 01:07:06,720
false account it's usually anonymous so

1657
01:07:11,150 --> 01:07:08,369
in this case we had an anonymous person

1658
01:07:14,390 --> 01:07:11,160
did that their name didn't link to

1659
01:07:17,319 --> 01:07:14,400
anywhere it was a gmail address so it

1660
01:07:21,770 --> 01:07:17,329
could be established five minutes ago

1661
01:07:24,559 --> 01:07:21,780
and usually they have been involved in

1662
01:07:26,900 --> 01:07:24,569
trying to sort of derail political

1663
01:07:29,809 --> 01:07:26,910
campaigns but they'll come on and say I

1664
01:07:32,569 --> 01:07:29,819
don't I whilst I agree with the core of

1665
01:07:35,210 --> 01:07:32,579
this political campaign is politician is

1666
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:35,220
of concern because blah so when anyone

1667
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:36,690
runs over there to the blood forgets

1668
01:07:41,599 --> 01:07:39,210
about interests the Ferguson yeah so

1669
01:07:43,339 --> 01:07:41,609
initially with this person some people

1670
01:07:44,870 --> 01:07:43,349
suggested it was Meryl Dory and they

1671
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:44,880
asked them openly if they were Meryl

1672
01:07:52,940 --> 01:07:49,410
Dory and they said no but yes she the

1673
01:07:54,500 --> 01:07:52,950
sake of clarity she before she left she

1674
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:54,510
was there for about three or four days

1675
01:08:00,440 --> 01:07:57,210
then yesterday she left in a stream of

1676
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:00,450
abuse and that was including things that

1677
01:08:07,350 --> 01:08:04,770
I was a liar I was irresponsible for not

1678
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:07,360
knowing what vaccines were about and

1679
01:08:12,150 --> 01:08:09,730
was because she said vaccines are made

1680
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:12,160
with as i mentioned live chicken blood

1681
01:08:16,860 --> 01:08:15,370
monkey livers chicken eggs which they

1682
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:16,870
are and i shall tell you how ladies a

1683
01:08:21,420 --> 01:08:18,610
clue as opposed to dead to you well

1684
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:21,430
exactly but the funniest one was beef

1685
01:08:29,790 --> 01:08:26,730
embryos now at first i thought okay so

1686
01:08:31,710 --> 01:08:29,800
there's cows makes we beefin for milk

1687
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:31,720
right so not the ones that have milk

1688
01:08:36,690 --> 01:08:34,930
that's not the kind of cow but then

1689
01:08:39,300 --> 01:08:36,700
someone suggested to me well no beef

1690
01:08:41,820 --> 01:08:39,310
really is like a steak right yeah so

1691
01:08:43,230 --> 01:08:41,830
something you cook on the ground so now

1692
01:08:47,130 --> 01:08:43,240
we're talking about steak sort of

1693
01:08:50,490 --> 01:08:47,140
breeding to make embryos so this was

1694
01:08:52,410 --> 01:08:50,500
just so illogical and I mean I I work

1695
01:08:55,740 --> 01:08:52,420
with I tried to explain to this person

1696
01:08:58,130 --> 01:08:55,750
that I think they said fetuses or

1697
01:09:00,510 --> 01:08:58,140
something human fetuses and I said well

1698
01:09:02,790 --> 01:09:00,520
sometimes cells are taken from human

1699
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:02,800
fetuses and put into dishes and cultured

1700
01:09:07,860 --> 01:09:04,930
and for years and years immortalized

1701
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:07,870
which means they never die and they used

1702
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:10,960
in research now this is what's happened

1703
01:09:15,060 --> 01:09:13,090
with most cell lines in culture and I

1704
01:09:18,690 --> 01:09:15,070
work with one's commonly which are known

1705
01:09:20,910 --> 01:09:18,700
as mr c5's now these are originally

1706
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:20,920
derived from human lung they're

1707
01:09:26,250 --> 01:09:23,290
fibroblasts that grow in your lungs so

1708
01:09:28,230 --> 01:09:26,260
by the logic of this concern troll that

1709
01:09:32,460 --> 01:09:28,240
means I use human lungs in my research

1710
01:09:35,010 --> 01:09:32,470
well no I don't and as the same as you

1711
01:09:36,660 --> 01:09:35,020
know Henrietta Lacks that the book has

1712
01:09:37,950 --> 01:09:36,670
just been published by Rebecca Skloot

1713
01:09:40,980 --> 01:09:37,960
called The Immortal Life of Henrietta

1714
01:09:43,380 --> 01:09:40,990
Lacks well lots of people use her cells

1715
01:09:44,820 --> 01:09:43,390
they're called heal ourselves it doesn't

1716
01:09:46,440 --> 01:09:44,830
mean we've got Henrietta Lacks as the

1717
01:09:48,900 --> 01:09:46,450
line it up in the lab we've got them in

1718
01:09:52,290 --> 01:09:48,910
a dish you know that's how illogical is

1719
01:09:55,350 --> 01:09:52,300
this one of your favorite little tricks

1720
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:55,360
is to you know much like how we we love

1721
01:09:59,940 --> 01:09:57,010
to see how we can throw as many signs

1722
01:10:01,890 --> 01:09:59,950
see words in a in a box and string them

1723
01:10:04,020 --> 01:10:01,900
together to form some new route therapy

1724
01:10:07,350 --> 01:10:04,030
we love to throw as many scary sounding

1725
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:07,360
chemicals and scary sounding words in a

1726
01:10:10,470 --> 01:10:08,770
box and pull them all out and tell

1727
01:10:12,570 --> 01:10:10,480
people that their ingredients in

1728
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:12,580
in every vaccine and everything that's

1729
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:16,210
being injected into them so you know

1730
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:17,890
formaldehydes one of their favorite ones

1731
01:10:24,510 --> 01:10:23,170
but you know fetus fetus fetus you say

1732
01:10:28,950 --> 01:10:24,520
fetus enough time when everyone's going

1733
01:10:30,660 --> 01:10:28,960
to go the other one is it was percenter

1734
01:10:33,210 --> 01:10:30,670
but in the end what this person had done

1735
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:33,220
was gone through the cdc publishes a

1736
01:10:39,260 --> 01:10:36,489
list of chemicals and components used in

1737
01:10:41,970 --> 01:10:39,270
the manufacture and in the culture of

1738
01:10:44,430 --> 01:10:41,980
vaccines and what they've done was pick

1739
01:10:46,229 --> 01:10:44,440
and choose scary sounding words which

1740
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:46,239
actually when they presented them to me

1741
01:10:57,540 --> 01:10:50,530
was just laughable because it was bovine

1742
01:10:59,670 --> 01:10:57,550
serum albumin calf serum bovine protein

1743
01:11:01,800 --> 01:10:59,680
what I just said are the same things

1744
01:11:05,250 --> 01:11:01,810
that's three things are the same and

1745
01:11:08,550 --> 01:11:05,260
then hero human serum now okay we've got

1746
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:08,560
bovine which is calcium and then human

1747
01:11:13,020 --> 01:11:11,890
serum that's used in cell culture when

1748
01:11:14,729 --> 01:11:13,030
you make it when you're culturing the

1749
01:11:16,590 --> 01:11:14,739
cells to go then grow the vaccine and

1750
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:16,600
then the vaccine is removed and purified

1751
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:18,130
as i explained it's in words of one

1752
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:20,970
syllable to this person and then

1753
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:23,290
yesterday they came back and said you're

1754
01:11:27,630 --> 01:11:25,570
a liar you're a liar and we had a little

1755
01:11:29,010 --> 01:11:27,640
bit of a discussion amongst the three or

1756
01:11:32,490 --> 01:11:29,020
four of us that have been responding to

1757
01:11:34,650 --> 01:11:32,500
their posts and then lo and behold this

1758
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:34,660
afternoon they came back and apologized

1759
01:11:39,900 --> 01:11:36,730
and retracted everything that they've

1760
01:11:43,170 --> 01:11:39,910
said and in particular apologized to me

1761
01:11:47,190 --> 01:11:43,180
specifically and said I accept all the

1762
01:11:50,580 --> 01:11:47,200
criticisms I was wrong i'm sorry what

1763
01:11:54,300 --> 01:11:50,590
and so we're now up to comment 142 on

1764
01:11:56,370 --> 01:11:54,310
this body so I'm not trying to figure

1765
01:11:59,010 --> 01:11:56,380
out if we have a concern troll or just a

1766
01:12:01,290 --> 01:11:59,020
troll or someone who genuinely was

1767
01:12:04,470 --> 01:12:01,300
misguided and thought they knew

1768
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:04,480
everything but in fact well just I don't

1769
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:06,489
know and on top of that she said this

1770
01:12:10,020 --> 01:12:08,410
afternoon I had a bad day when I got

1771
01:12:12,510 --> 01:12:10,030
home and I was really frustrated that

1772
01:12:15,149 --> 01:12:12,520
you guys didn't respond to my complaints

1773
01:12:16,739 --> 01:12:15,159
the way I wanted you to so I

1774
01:12:19,319 --> 01:12:16,749
sort of lashed out and I shouldn't have

1775
01:12:21,899 --> 01:12:19,329
and I apologized and blah blah blah well

1776
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:21,909
there you go how unusual but I just

1777
01:12:27,629 --> 01:12:24,570
actually just on that note I wanted to

1778
01:12:30,959 --> 01:12:27,639
just bring up what's being proposed as

1779
01:12:36,750 --> 01:12:30,969
the bloggers code of conduct all this

1780
01:12:38,969 --> 01:12:36,760
was proposed by Tim O'Reilly now he was

1781
01:12:43,319 --> 01:12:38,979
refers reported on the BBC News some

1782
01:12:45,870 --> 01:12:43,329
years ago and he proposed seven ideas

1783
01:12:48,270 --> 01:12:45,880
for codes of conduct and that is that

1784
01:12:50,100 --> 01:12:48,280
you should take responsibility not just

1785
01:12:53,939 --> 01:12:50,110
for your own words but for the comments

1786
01:12:57,589 --> 01:12:53,949
you allow on your blog yeah yeah he says

1787
01:13:00,179 --> 01:12:57,599
consider eliminating anonymous comments

1788
01:13:03,949 --> 01:13:00,189
yeah it depends on the discussion I

1789
01:13:06,540 --> 01:13:03,959
suppose depends on the call me yeah yeah

1790
01:13:10,890 --> 01:13:06,550
label your tolerance level for abusive

1791
01:13:12,029 --> 01:13:10,900
comments so does that mean I suppose

1792
01:13:14,759 --> 01:13:12,039
maybe what he's saying is sort of

1793
01:13:17,129 --> 01:13:14,769
setting a setting a bar under which you

1794
01:13:18,839 --> 01:13:17,139
know for example you know calling

1795
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:18,849
someone an idiot might be considered

1796
01:13:24,140 --> 01:13:21,610
acceptable but you know using expletives

1797
01:13:28,729 --> 01:13:24,150
and really tearing someone to shreds

1798
01:13:34,009 --> 01:13:32,089
yeah yeah exactly well I mean I had

1799
01:13:35,899 --> 01:13:34,019
libel potentially committed against me

1800
01:13:41,419 --> 01:13:35,909
last night by them saying you are a liar

1801
01:13:43,279 --> 01:13:41,429
yeah so ignore the trolls if you know

1802
01:13:46,069 --> 01:13:43,289
someone who is behaving badly tell them

1803
01:13:48,020 --> 01:13:46,079
so and importantly and finally don't say

1804
01:13:51,500 --> 01:13:48,030
anything online that you wouldn't say in

1805
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:51,510
person now I think that's really a nice

1806
01:13:55,129 --> 01:13:53,730
thing to say and there's a genuine

1807
01:13:59,060 --> 01:13:55,139
sentiment in that but that's just

1808
01:14:02,359 --> 01:13:59,070
nonsense the internet with it was just

1809
01:14:03,709 --> 01:14:02,369
disappeared no I have to say anything no

1810
01:14:05,870 --> 01:14:03,719
I mean that's the thing about the

1811
01:14:08,509 --> 01:14:05,880
internet isn't it that people feel that

1812
01:14:09,799 --> 01:14:08,519
they are anonymous in a way so they can

1813
01:14:12,379 --> 01:14:09,809
say whatever the hell they like and they

1814
01:14:15,229 --> 01:14:12,389
do yeah yeah well it's like when you're

1815
01:14:18,620 --> 01:14:15,239
in chat rooms I'm i certainly remember

1816
01:14:22,009 --> 01:14:18,630
when Stefan and I originally got on to

1817
01:14:24,529 --> 01:14:22,019
the Internet in 1995 I was working with

1818
01:14:26,299 --> 01:14:24,539
Stefan at the time and we joined

1819
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:26,309
something which was amazing called an

1820
01:14:32,689 --> 01:14:30,449
IRC and we were just going what is it

1821
01:14:34,580 --> 01:14:32,699
yeah we are talking to somebody here and

1822
01:14:36,649 --> 01:14:34,590
we're talking to somebody that freaked

1823
01:14:38,779 --> 01:14:36,659
us out but it occurred to me at the time

1824
01:14:43,790 --> 01:14:38,789
the people were coming on calling

1825
01:14:47,299 --> 01:14:43,800
themselves Kimber or Joe 62 anybody any

1826
01:14:50,500 --> 01:14:47,309
age so it was all was all like that now

1827
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:50,510
I'm Rachel you and I had a fun evening

1828
01:14:58,339 --> 01:14:53,610
yesterday we went to the ABC the

1829
01:14:59,629 --> 01:14:58,349
australian broadcasting corporation the

1830
01:15:03,229 --> 01:14:59,639
television and radio people

1831
01:15:05,540 --> 01:15:03,239
government-run here in sydney and we saw

1832
01:15:09,649 --> 01:15:05,550
our good friend dr. carl cruise on

1833
01:15:12,859 --> 01:15:09,659
whiskey yep and adam spencer recording a

1834
01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:12,869
new series of their show sleek geeks it

1835
01:15:17,870 --> 01:15:15,449
is we did and their topic was the end of

1836
01:15:19,910 --> 01:15:17,880
the world why me very jealous very

1837
01:15:21,589 --> 01:15:19,920
jealous really well actually it was

1838
01:15:23,959 --> 01:15:21,599
really good fun it was me it was really

1839
01:15:25,549 --> 01:15:23,969
fun but I have to tell you and I looked

1840
01:15:28,250 --> 01:15:25,559
at you were several times during the

1841
01:15:31,850 --> 01:15:28,260
filming I felt like I was watching a

1842
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:31,860
film plate lecture I think why the last

1843
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:33,690
part I think I even mentioned that to

1844
01:15:37,219 --> 01:15:35,489
you wednesday yeah whispered in your ear

1845
01:15:38,730 --> 01:15:37,229
this is it this is like cool someone's

1846
01:15:40,770 --> 01:15:38,740
been reading death from the sky

1847
01:15:43,290 --> 01:15:40,780
someone's been eating dirt on the skies

1848
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:43,300
so they would eat asteroid impact and

1849
01:15:48,090 --> 01:15:45,970
super nova and all that sort of stuff

1850
01:15:50,220 --> 01:15:48,100
but it was a good show was good fun it

1851
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:50,230
was it was really good I mean that

1852
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:51,370
wasn't all of it they talked about

1853
01:15:58,800 --> 01:15:54,730
nuclear apocalypse yeah as a potential

1854
01:16:01,500 --> 01:15:58,810
plague plagues yep hello we won't give

1855
01:16:03,810 --> 01:16:01,510
too much of the show way but snot and

1856
01:16:06,510 --> 01:16:03,820
Carl told us that sleek geeks the new

1857
01:16:07,890 --> 01:16:06,520
series will be on air sometime in the

1858
01:16:10,380 --> 01:16:07,900
next few months they don't know when

1859
01:16:11,730 --> 01:16:10,390
exactly but if the show we went to see

1860
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:11,740
is any indication I think would be a

1861
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:13,690
good fun series no it was great and

1862
01:16:19,740 --> 01:16:15,970
anyone who's heard dr. Carl and those of

1863
01:16:22,410 --> 01:16:19,750
our listeners in the UK he also does BBC

1864
01:16:24,690 --> 01:16:22,420
radio and of course it will be a speaker

1865
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:24,700
tam Australia well he will be yeah

1866
01:16:28,350 --> 01:16:26,530
absolutely keeping some really good

1867
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:28,360
science to be on in the last few weeks

1868
01:16:32,820 --> 01:16:31,090
and I have to just mention it purely I

1869
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:32,830
think I might be coming to an end now

1870
01:16:39,330 --> 01:16:35,410
but for those people who can tolerate

1871
01:16:41,780 --> 01:16:39,340
the gory on SBS and we're not talking

1872
01:16:44,100 --> 01:16:41,790
about embarrassing illnesses here dr. aj

1873
01:16:47,010 --> 01:16:44,110
that's your favorite sure it is my

1874
01:16:50,580 --> 01:16:47,020
favorite joke what you're talking but on

1875
01:16:53,010 --> 01:16:50,590
SBS well well I don't know if I really

1876
01:16:54,540 --> 01:16:53,020
want to know Richard SBS for the last

1877
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:54,550
few weeks is a to really really

1878
01:16:58,800 --> 01:16:56,770
interesting shows one of which is about

1879
01:17:00,810 --> 01:16:58,810
the history of surgery and the other one

1880
01:17:02,750 --> 01:17:00,820
is actually a fantastic show from I

1881
01:17:05,820 --> 01:17:02,760
think it's from channel 4 in the UK

1882
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:05,830
which is a live live surgery of surgery

1883
01:17:11,970 --> 01:17:08,650
and um it's it's absolutely fabulous

1884
01:17:13,890 --> 01:17:11,980
because they've done a hernia a hiatus

1885
01:17:18,450 --> 01:17:13,900
hernia repair they've done brain surgery

1886
01:17:21,660 --> 01:17:18,460
and they have the surgeons miked up and

1887
01:17:23,730 --> 01:17:21,670
they've got the BBC at the channel 4

1888
01:17:26,280 --> 01:17:23,740
reporter and a whole panel of doctors

1889
01:17:27,870 --> 01:17:26,290
and an audience or watching and people

1890
01:17:29,250 --> 01:17:27,880
can ask questions and I think this is

1891
01:17:31,050 --> 01:17:29,260
fabulous because i think it's the sort

1892
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:31,060
of thing which really can demystify a

1893
01:17:34,350 --> 01:17:32,890
lot of what goes on in medicine to

1894
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:34,360
people out there who really are clueless

1895
01:17:38,670 --> 01:17:36,610
about their bodies and about how things

1896
01:17:40,230 --> 01:17:38,680
work reminds me of an episode of the

1897
01:17:42,990 --> 01:17:40,240
goodies where they were doing life

1898
01:17:44,570 --> 01:17:43,000
surgery in a bullring so the surgeon is

1899
01:17:46,340 --> 01:17:44,580
standing there like that

1900
01:17:48,550 --> 01:17:46,350
the patient was willed across now

1901
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:48,560
sticking in the needles and I stayed

1902
01:17:55,310 --> 01:17:51,570
because that's what it's really like

1903
01:17:57,080 --> 01:17:55,320
isn't it Joe yeah that's exactly i think

1904
01:17:58,400 --> 01:17:57,090
i would i'd like to participate in

1905
01:18:01,400 --> 01:17:58,410
surgery like that i would be fine you do

1906
01:18:03,890 --> 01:18:01,410
have your nurses running across that

1907
01:18:06,020 --> 01:18:03,900
reminds me too i I thoroughly enjoyed

1908
01:18:07,580 --> 01:18:06,030
the the last episode of Mythbusters

1909
01:18:09,110 --> 01:18:07,590
which was shown here in Australia I

1910
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:09,120
don't know if you saw a joke I was this

1911
01:18:13,370 --> 01:18:10,890
the other night with the diving diving

1912
01:18:15,650 --> 01:18:13,380
oh that was brilliant telling Rachel

1913
01:18:16,970 --> 01:18:15,660
about it our listeners haven't seen it i

1914
01:18:19,610 --> 01:18:16,980
won't give too much way but there's a

1915
01:18:21,500 --> 01:18:19,620
myth that the old fashioned deep-sea

1916
01:18:23,270 --> 01:18:21,510
divers were there they're heavy metal

1917
01:18:25,100 --> 01:18:23,280
helmets and they're pressurized suit if

1918
01:18:26,740 --> 01:18:25,110
they lost pressure under the ocean what

1919
01:18:29,060 --> 01:18:26,750
would happen and it was just hilarious

1920
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:29,070
well I think we can say what the myth is

1921
01:18:32,620 --> 01:18:30,570
about giving to it well the myth the

1922
01:18:34,790 --> 01:18:32,630
myth is that the body would be crushed

1923
01:18:36,590 --> 01:18:34,800
basically the whole body would be sucked

1924
01:18:38,390 --> 01:18:36,600
up into the stock up a little so they

1925
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:38,400
devised some really fabulous ways to

1926
01:18:43,060 --> 01:18:40,170
test this out if your episode of to see

1927
01:18:44,860 --> 01:18:43,070
at a higher Jamie and Adam and the gang

1928
01:18:48,770 --> 01:18:44,870
congratulations on that episode was

1929
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:48,780
bloody glad it was a great episode well

1930
01:18:54,110 --> 01:18:50,610
look let me also mention while we're

1931
01:18:55,970 --> 01:18:54,120
talking about TV you lucky lucky viewers

1932
01:18:58,700 --> 01:18:55,980
in Australia in the past week it's over

1933
01:19:01,430 --> 01:18:58,710
now of course a two o'clock arm every

1934
01:19:04,610 --> 01:19:01,440
day this week the channel seven have

1935
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:04,620
been repeating the one starring yours

1936
01:19:08,900 --> 01:19:07,290
truly high-quality drama and I know

1937
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:08,910
they've been repeating it because people

1938
01:19:13,670 --> 01:19:11,210
are stopping me in the street saying

1939
01:19:17,150 --> 01:19:13,680
you're that you're that you kill that

1940
01:19:20,180 --> 01:19:17,160
guy mr. skeptic tell me this mr.

1941
01:19:22,790 --> 01:19:20,190
skipping where are ya they haven't they

1942
01:19:24,710 --> 01:19:22,800
haven't done that but they probably been

1943
01:19:26,420 --> 01:19:24,720
mentioning it actually it's been peering

1944
01:19:28,340 --> 01:19:26,430
on some in fact so much so that I find

1945
01:19:29,100 --> 01:19:28,350
the one who all the skeptics are sitting

1946
01:19:33,149 --> 01:19:29,110
around at home

1947
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:33,159
tching daytime TV I realized to shine a

1948
01:19:39,330 --> 01:19:36,010
skeptic to sit at home and Twitter about

1949
01:19:43,140 --> 01:19:39,340
watching TV not not mentioning names

1950
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:43,150
dread pirate Mick no no actually I think

1951
01:19:48,030 --> 01:19:45,730
I'm also just as guilty actually my

1952
01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:48,040
we're recording this on a wednesday i

1953
01:19:51,209 --> 01:19:49,810
might watch the next two episodes to see

1954
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:51,219
if they actually should get it right no

1955
01:19:56,939 --> 01:19:54,130
it's all right but don't put yourself

1956
01:20:02,310 --> 01:19:56,949
through it I've seen it before a new to

1957
01:20:04,379 --> 01:20:02,320
you were there oh yeah I looked it out I

1958
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:04,389
know I mention it from time to time but

1959
01:20:09,149 --> 01:20:07,210
the team really love to hear and I know

1960
01:20:10,979 --> 01:20:09,159
Iran's been getting emails individually

1961
01:20:14,700 --> 01:20:10,989
about what people do either listening to

1962
01:20:16,620 --> 01:20:14,710
the grain of salt so keep those emails

1963
01:20:19,140 --> 01:20:16,630
coming in we get a real kick out of

1964
01:20:22,770 --> 01:20:19,150
knowing what you're doing while

1965
01:20:24,870 --> 01:20:22,780
listening to this skeptic zone oh well

1966
01:20:26,879 --> 01:20:24,880
listen what a what a fun time we've had

1967
01:20:28,500 --> 01:20:26,889
a while we'll be sitting here half the

1968
01:20:30,090 --> 01:20:28,510
restaurant is cleared out I must say

1969
01:20:34,649 --> 01:20:30,100
it's interesting I Australian children

1970
01:20:37,410 --> 01:20:34,659
know what he's running up but thanks Joe

1971
01:20:41,129 --> 01:20:37,420
very much for coming all the way across

1972
01:20:44,220 --> 01:20:41,139
China I know it's a a big effort it is a

1973
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:44,230
track it is and thank you dr. Richie of

1974
01:20:48,020 --> 01:20:46,690
course wonderful to have you as ever

1975
01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:48,030
part of the think tank and

1976
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:50,800
congratulations and sincerely on the

1977
01:20:54,149 --> 01:20:52,570
fantastic work you do especially with

1978
01:20:56,490 --> 01:20:54,159
the skeptics book of poo poo I wasn't

1979
01:20:58,590 --> 01:20:56,500
joking before it is read by thousands of

1980
01:21:02,070 --> 01:20:58,600
people and a lot of people take notice

1981
01:21:04,830 --> 01:21:02,080
of that and the comments are flowing in

1982
01:21:06,660 --> 01:21:04,840
so listen is if you haven't caught up

1983
01:21:08,580 --> 01:21:06,670
with dr. a cheese blog and if you like

1984
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:08,590
listening to dr. hu you'll love her blog

1985
01:21:12,270 --> 01:21:10,690
the skeptics book of poo poo or if you

1986
01:21:14,700 --> 01:21:12,280
just google the skeptics book it should

1987
01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:14,710
I with skeptics book calm with a CEO

1988
01:21:19,859 --> 01:21:17,050
with a que but I've also got some big

1989
01:21:21,209 --> 01:21:19,869
projects at my slave at the moment that

1990
01:21:24,359 --> 01:21:21,219
I should be able to talk about soon

1991
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:24,369
which have sort of come out of the blog

1992
01:21:31,050 --> 01:21:26,290
and also the shorty awards which I don't

1993
01:21:32,250 --> 01:21:31,060
have yet where's my show live I've seen

1994
01:21:33,839 --> 01:21:32,260
I've seen this

1995
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:33,849
post your certificate saying that it's

1996
01:21:39,060 --> 01:21:36,489
on its way so yeah in the mail it's been

1997
01:21:40,620 --> 01:21:39,070
attract on UPS apparently but but you

1998
01:21:43,319 --> 01:21:40,630
know when you track something on UPS and

1999
01:21:46,529 --> 01:21:43,329
it goes overseas then there's no cds no

2000
01:21:48,689 --> 01:21:46,539
over the public or whatever i shouldn t

2001
01:21:50,490 --> 01:21:48,699
away well when when it arrives we'll

2002
01:21:52,109 --> 01:21:50,500
have to take the photograph of you

2003
01:21:54,029 --> 01:21:52,119
holding a short in what will certainly

2004
01:21:57,450 --> 01:21:54,039
bring it to the think tank will bring it

2005
01:21:59,970 --> 01:21:57,460
together but just before we go just

2006
01:22:03,149 --> 01:21:59,980
before we go because we have had so many

2007
01:22:05,879 --> 01:22:03,159
inquiries about it Joe could you just

2008
01:22:08,459 --> 01:22:05,889
fill us in briefly on the latest Tam

2009
01:22:10,140 --> 01:22:08,469
Australian news yes absolutely Richard

2010
01:22:13,319 --> 01:22:10,150
so we've been getting lots of inquiries

2011
01:22:15,870 --> 01:22:13,329
and what I can tell people at the moment

2012
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:15,880
is that you can read more about what's

2013
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:18,010
happening with Tam australia on the

2014
01:22:22,979 --> 01:22:19,449
australian skeptics website which is

2015
01:22:24,450 --> 01:22:22,989
skeptics calm day you and at the moment

2016
01:22:27,359 --> 01:22:24,460
it looks like tickets will be going on

2017
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:27,369
sale around about june with more details

2018
01:22:32,359 --> 01:22:30,730
to come so keep posted and check the

2019
01:22:36,029 --> 01:22:32,369
website and we'll keep you up to date

2020
01:22:38,009 --> 01:22:36,039
and we are planning to launch its own

2021
01:22:41,220 --> 01:22:38,019
website yes a specifically dedicated

2022
01:22:43,049 --> 01:22:41,230
team website very soon so at the moment

2023
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:43,059
head to skeptics calm today you but

2024
01:22:46,950 --> 01:22:45,010
we'll keep you updated on there when

2025
01:22:48,779 --> 01:22:46,960
anything changes excellent well we

2026
01:22:51,509 --> 01:22:48,789
certainly look forward to that thank you

2027
01:22:53,220 --> 01:22:51,519
again and thank you listeners for tuning

2028
01:22:55,020 --> 01:22:53,230
in or downloading or whatever you do on

2029
01:22:57,359 --> 01:22:55,030
the internet to the think tank and to

2030
01:23:06,790 --> 01:22:57,369
the show this week thank you ladies and

2031
01:23:38,020 --> 01:23:08,840
you know what I really enjoyed was

2032
01:23:43,670 --> 01:23:41,000
well wasn't that a an interesting

2033
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:43,680
episode of the skeptic zone thanks very

2034
01:23:48,770 --> 01:23:46,410
much for downloading and think at all

2035
01:23:51,260 --> 01:23:48,780
those people who continue to help us

2036
01:23:55,030 --> 01:23:51,270
produce the skeptic zone by donating or

2037
01:23:57,470 --> 01:23:55,040
even subscribing details at our website

2038
01:24:03,380 --> 01:23:57,480
until next week this is Richard Saunders

2039
01:24:05,780 --> 01:24:03,390
signing off from Sydney Australia you've

2040
01:24:10,370 --> 01:24:05,790
been listening to the skeptic zone visit

2041
01:24:12,860 --> 01:24:10,380
our website at www skeptics on TV for

2042
01:24:15,020 --> 01:24:12,870
comments contacts and extra video